02-07-2003 09:07									#1
	CivIII at 'poly Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Everybody,

Soooo, things have been a little quiet in 'poly CivIII land lately. Part of the problem is that so much has been going on in the private fora, but in truth, it's been slow in general lately... not much excitement.

Not only that, but I've been getting a fair number of PMs/e-mails about how CFC has been rocking lately, mostly due to the contributions cracker has made via the GOTM (PMs also trying to get me to play in it), and the overall benefit that has brought to activity on the site. I went over and checked several times over the last few days, and it's true. Agreed, AU402 has got a limited number of people sort of short-term pumped, but 1) 40+ players is nothing compared to CFC GOTM, and 2) the nature of the specific game, i.e., beyond huge, will be very limiting.

Well, anyway, CFC's not the point, it is rather that I am pretty 'invested' in 'poly, like all of us, even those who are also active on CFC, and I want to see this place thrive. For the CivIII players, the fact that this new RCP city placement thing arose at CFC was sort of like a five-alarm bell to me...

So I've been thinking about it. I've got some ideas:

AU presence - One of the things that CFC did was to give the GOTM more of its own presence... well, maybe that's the wrong way to say it, rather it's that cracker put a HUGE effort into it, and then turned around and got CFC admin to highlight the results. I think that we need to do the same thing; I mean, c’mon, how easy is it for a newcomer to even find AU?? The problem is, this will require an effort similar to cracker’s on someone's part, and due to RL it ain't gonna be me. Volunteers?

AU content - The whole thing really should be a bit more formalized. Put some meaning into the course structure, develop ideas for future courses, summarize lessons learned, etc. Again, I've got RL constraints, but in light of my first point, if we do things a little differently, maybe we can have some fun... badams52 for AU Chancellor, perhaps? Seriously, while AU to date has been very much in keeping with what I consider the "anarchic democracy" culture of 'poly, it could use a bit more of the structure that CFC GOTM has, and can be highlighted to the world a bit more.

AU Mod - Shouldn't we make a big deal of this? I'm not totally into the modding community, but as far as I know this is the best mod around. alexman has even been trying to get cracker to consider for the GOTM!!! This is a potentially great branding product for CivIII on 'poly, and we've done nothing with it, really.

Beyond AU – Let’s face it, people do like contests, rankings, etc. Just look at how the CFC GOTM results are pored over. Ideas?

Multiplayer - I've noticed that Fried-Psitalon and some others have built up a pretty impressive community for MP *elsewhere*... should we connect with, for example, CIV3PLAYERS Ladder League, in some way?

The MP demogames – Is there any else like the PTWDG going on anywhere of note? For those not involved, believe me, it is intense… and speaking for the Strat Forum / Gathering Storm, I can tell you that some of the best of what 'poly has to offer is hidden away in our private forum. Actually, I am only partially joking…. That is certainly one of the fora that has suffered from our absence. And the GS/Vox conflict ranks as period-the-end the most intense aspect of any gaming I've ever done. Fer Chrissake, when Vox invaded, I got woken up at 4am with a phone call from Germany!! Can’t we make a bigger public deal of this game? There was recently an article in the NY Times about some guy in one of the fantasy massively multiplayer games out there who had maybe 3000 posts since the beginning of last year… gimme a break!! And does anybody think that what we are into, CivIII, is not the most intellectually interesting of all the games / gaming communities out there? (Seriously!! Why don't we have Jared Diamond or somebody writing about us in the Sunday NY Times?) And the ISDG!!! Why don’t we have the whole ‘poly community cheering for us?? Why aren't the CivII MP experts helping out?


And I’m sure there are a gazillion other great ideas to jazz things up around here… anybody?

RL has been waaaay busy for me lately, and will continue to be so, and thus I’ll be limited in the working roles that I can fill… but doesn’t everyone want to see ‘poly kicking butt and taking names?

Theseus

Last edited by Theseus on 02-07-2003 at 18:24

	02-07-2003 10:05									#2
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Great post Theseus.

I totally agree with you on all your points, including the RL being way too busy. I'd like to help out where I can though. I also have a lot of time invested in 'Poly now.

For AU, it could definitely be jazzed up a bit...starting with the structure of it. It's great, but it is a little hard to find for those who don't frequent the strat forum. I don't know exactly what could be done right away to jazz it up, but someone volunteering to be in charge of "marketing it" would be a great start. It would have to be someone that WANTS to do it though. I also still stand behind my idea of making an AU civgroup icon. I think it's a way to get the AU courses out there a bit more like I said in my post on the strat forum. As to developing new courses it's been kind of hit and miss. Dominae and Alexman have developed most of the recent ones, though AU402 was nbarclay's baby. A true competition AU course would be a very interesting thing.

I think the democracy games are a great way to get things going if we could highlight them more, the problem is that there are only about 130 people signed up (not necessarily involved in) the PTWDG and even less in the PTWDGII. Part of the problem with it is that it's somewhat implied that the games are already under way so newbies wouldn't be coming in on the ground floor. I got in on PTWDGII right before it's official start, but I didn't realize I'd be able to join the PTWDG until just a few days ago when I was invited to join Vox. Perhaps better explanations in the topped thread (maybe even one devoted solely to explaining the concepts and how you go about joining a team and that can't be posted in afterwards) will help drum up some new members as well. Right now you have to wade through quite a bit to understand what is going on.

I hope your post really wakes some people up. I'd certainly like to see 'Poly kicking butt again.

	02-07-2003 10:55									#3
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I don't know what Vox is, but I think your are correct.
I looked at Gotm, but you have to drop in all the pieces they have evolved over time, just to play anthing since about Gotm16. That is not for me. I do enjoy looking at some of the players reports.
The effort that Cracker has put into the thing is just beyond real.
When you look at the work that he did in the training game for a prospective (QSC) player, it was inspiring.
Some of the players have created detail html spreads of their efforts that are also interesting.
One of the things that would be very hard for any participation here is the server is unreliable and slow.
I have yet to encounter delays at CFC. Here I often can not get in all day using DSL. That is not condusive to anyone wanting to be involved. I don't know what could be done on that score. They killed the avatars to save band width, next will be the pictures.
I can lend morale support.

	02-07-2003 11:42									#4
	Tired of ads?

hi ,

well this has been mentioned before but it never really got of the ground , it would be great to have a GOTM on apolyton , .....

have a nice day

	02-07-2003 16:23									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree that a re-vamped and relaunched AU would be a benefit. I can't see us organising anything close to the scale of the GOTM at CFC (I agree that the work put into that is "beyond real").

Maybe a seperate webpage for the AU, something like apolyton.net/civ3/au - with a prominent link on the main Civ3 page here? It would be easier if people didn't have to look through threads to find the AU. Do we have any competent web designers here who could code it? It wouldn't have to be too fancy, just functionally attractive.
You'd have to ask DanQ about it once you got a volunteer or two to code it. It would need to be maintained by AU members - anything that adds to the workload of the already-overworked admins is less likely to be received well.

The webpage could house links to the scenarios in the directory (which need to be kept updated) and to threads in the forum such as badams' excellent "AU History 101" thread and the AU-mod threads.
Each AU course would have it's own summary page, and sub-pages with samples of the best AAR's for that course.

That would be a good place to start, and should be considered IMHO.

I'll do what I can to help - but that isn't much at all (especially with my new duties on the ACS staff).

I'll be more than glad to publicize any new initiatives when/if they get to an appropriate stage via a news post. Just say the word and it'll be done.

	02-07-2003 17:26									#6
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I'm an occasional visitor here at 'poly and started doing so in an effort to learn more about CIV III. I'll take a look at CFC now and again, but have learned more here.
Frankly, I don't know what the heck is being talked about in several forums, so I slide on by. Now I'm interested in this thread because it seems [Here Rob loosens collar, gulps for air, and prays he's right] you are all talking about something that would be very useful to learning about the game and advancing interest in Apolyton and CIV.
I don't know what a GOTM is, and I don't know what AU is. If AU is something useful, and you seem to think it is, why isn't it featured more prominently? Must I spend considerable time trying to find out what it is? Is there an admissions test? Where do I register?
Please explain (or direct me to an explanation) what AU is. I'm sure there are other Apolytoners who, like me, are just here on occasion and looking at this thread and going .
--Rob

	02-07-2003 18:14									#7
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Rob_S: This thread should tell you all you need to know about AU: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=83557

	02-07-2003 19:31									#8
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Theseus,

One thing, regarding the PTW Demogame (I):

I definitely think that some of us GS'ers should be thinking about AARs after it's all said and done. It would be great if posters from the other teams would do so as well.

It would be pretty cool if we could assemble a play-by-play of Vox's preparations for their invasion, our frantic response, the turning of the tide, and conclusion of the war. Same for future conflicts.

Same thing for wonder building, perhaps... after all, we got beaten to the Pyramids by ~2 turns, IIRC, but in the end, our switch to the Great Lighthouse ended up being a very useful military advantage.

It's a fascinating game, IMO, and it's still young.

-Arrian

p.s. for those who don't know what the hell I'm talking about:

AAR: After Action Report. Common to AU (Apolyton University) games. Posters put together a description of their game for all to read.

GS - Gathering Storm, a team in the PTW Demogame. Theseus & I are the co-generals of the armies.

Vox - Vox Controli, a team in the PTW Demogame. Our neighbors to the north, with whom we just concluded a war.

	02-07-2003 21:03									#9
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Arrian, I think AAR's for the democracy games are a great idea. Perhaps publish each teams AAR in the strategy thread or such to get the word out there. The only problem is that it will be quite a while before the demogame is finished. I'll talk with Beta about it, but I didn't join Vox until after the war was concluded so I don't know as much about the preparations as the rest.

	02-07-2003 21:10									#10
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I have to agree with the lack of publicity we have generated.

I am only a recent adventurer in the AU/strategy group, mostly because I didn't hear of it for some time.

I also agree that the PTWDG is simply awesome. It is also all locked up in private forums. I would encourage more teams to set up something to relay SOME information. Not to *cough* brag, but with Trappings, I have told a story, yes, but it is all based on the REAL happenings of the game as well. The whole current trip to the lands of GS was brought on by the fact I was appointed your Ambassador. In fact

spoiler(highlight to read): There is in fact a unit within GoW that is named after me, if and when we go to war, I will follow that unit in the story all the way through to his being outdated/killed. Battles, travels, whatever happens.

. For those who don't know what the hell Im talking about, you can find it from the beginning here: http://central.masterzen.net/index.php?showtopic=124 and each new section appears in the PTWDG forum here: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/foru...?s=&forumid=164

Also, I thought that the S.P.I.N. organisation that I am attempting to get up and running would help bring some of the fun to the public as each week I would serve it up as a news update to go on the main news page. However, only a few commited to actually participate, perhaps there are more silent participants and I should just start it up anyway...

The same can be said of the ISDG. There needs to be SOME method of relaying the fun to the public, not keeping it locked completely away...

	02-07-2003 22:29									#11
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the global ranking thing is very attractive in their GOTM. it shows cfc as the place where "who the best players around" is decided.

	02-07-2003 22:36									#12
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All great ideas here, but we don't need to copy the GOTM or anything. That's CFC's crown jewels (or whutever), and we can't come close to matching the effort cracker has put into it. (Awesome job, cracker. AWESOME. )

However, whut we can do to help things out here and there around poly would be to "market" out the AU games and the DGs, especially the AUs. I mean, a special page, news updates, etc...nothing beyond the community's grasp. It would be a tremendous benefit.

Not to toot my own team's horn, but one of the things that has always gotten people posting in the DGs is roleplay.

	02-07-2003 22:37									#13
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I think a ranking system (something like the GOTM but I'm not sure since I haven't ever played one of those) might be a good idea to set in place for those who want to try it. However I think we should also keep a way to play the AU courses without being ranked for those who do not want to be part of the ranking system.

BTW UnO I think SPIN is a great idea and I'll try to make some Vox contributions in the near future. If nothing else we can try to get it out to the 'Poly civ3 community so it doesn't look as much like the PTW democracy games are a "clique".

	02-07-2003 22:39									#14
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Theseus:


Great Post, as usual but I would like to point out that the GOTM is a game that does not require a mod to play, and because of that anyone can download the GOTM and play to their hearts content to compare with others.

With the AU its quite different, first its not supported by the site managers as the GOTM is, The mod has to be downloaded, and it is buried in the strat forum. Also their is a feeling of elietism that exudes from some of the AU community.

Getting Dan and Mark to display AU challenges would help but a change in the style and reporting of the AU would need to be changed as well to make the AU games as popular as GOTM. Perhaps an exchange could be made with CFC where both Poly and CFC would support both styles of games?

	02-07-2003 22:44									#15
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I think poly should challenge cfc to a duel off. The 20 or so best players from cfc play the 20 best from poly in 1v1 duels.

	02-07-2003 22:49									#16
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quote: I would like to point out that the GOTM is a game that does not require a mod to play

From looking at CFC it appears that you need to download a specfic graphics pack to play the GOTM games.

I would also like to point out that playing with the AU mod is in no way compulsory for AU games. It is entirely optional. We don't even specify the difficulty setting any more, which is a good thing IMHO.

quote: I think poly should challenge cfc to a duel off. The 20 or so best players from cfc play the 20 best from poly in 1v1 duels.

Several of the better players post at both forums. I don't think site rivalries are very healthy either.

	02-07-2003 23:15									#17
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet quote: I think poly should challenge cfc to a duel off. The 20 or so best players from cfc play the 20 best from poly in 1v1 duels. Several of the better players post at both forums. I don't think site rivalries are very healthy either.

A duel off is essentially what the ISDG is. I don't think we should have another one, but if that were to happen then restricting it to the 20 "best" players isn't the best option. We're trying to create a "join us, we're having fun" atmosphere not create another clique. Who is to say who the 20 best players on Apolyton are anyway? Everyone who wants to should have the opportunity to contribute.

quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber With the AU its quite different, first its not supported by the site managers as the GOTM is, The mod has to be downloaded, and it is buried in the strat forum. Also their is a feeling of elietism that exudes from some of the AU community.

As to AU mod, you don't have to have it to play the AU courses (actually the latest one doesn't support the AU mod anyway). I haven't really noticed any elitism in AU either. Most of the strat forum posters (who are most of the AU players) are happy to take a look at saves and help others when it's asked for. Boosting AU to be supported by the site managers is one of the things Theseus was trying to do with his post. I think it can only help the Civ3 community here if it gets done.

	02-07-2003 23:29									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill As to AU mod, you don't have to have it to play the AU courses (actually the latest one doesn't support the AU mod anyway). I haven't really noticed any elitism in AU either. Most of the strat forum posters (who are most of the AU players) are happy to take a look at saves and help others when it's asked for. Boosting AU to be supported by the site managers is one of the things Theseus was trying to do with his post. I think it can only help the Civ3 community here if it gets done.

Which is the latest? There are so many of them its hard to keep track. I'm not saying that the members themselves are eliteist but that the 'poly community in general feels that it is. Many of the best players belong to the Au community and it seems to many (or at least to myself) that it is basically for players at emperor or above level. I'm not saying that Theseus should stop his efforts just realize that there are differences to the AU games and the GOTM. As for the GOTM requiring a graphics mod, I should say that I haven't posted on CFC in a long time so this may have changed.

	02-07-2003 23:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Which is the latest? There are so many of them its hard to keep track. I'm not saying that the members themselves are eliteist but that the 'poly community in general feels that it is. Many of the best players belong to the Au community and it seems to many (or at least to myself) that it is basically for players at emperor or above level. I'm not saying that Theseus should stop his efforts just realize that there are differences to the AU games and the GOTM. As for the GOTM requiring a graphics mod, I should say that I haven't posted on CFC in a long time so this may have changed.

It's AU402, and I agree it is somewhat hard to locate as well as knowing which AU course is the latest etc. That is one of the things that we want to change...to make it more user-friendly. I would think that we don't want to make it EXACTLY like the gotm games. We want to make it 'Poly's version.

Some of the players do play Emperor and above, but the beauty of the AU is that it can be played at any level. Many of the 'During Action Report' posters certainly don't play at Emperor level. I don't.

	03-07-2003 00:27									#20
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Well if someone else would help me I could try to improve the AU.

	03-07-2003 00:29									#21
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If scoring is the issue we could always restart the mini-tourneys.

	03-07-2003 00:31									#22
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Mad Bomber,

I play my games on Monarch, with only occasional forays up to Emperor. I've seen plenty of AARs by Regent level players, and the occasional Warlord. Many of the regulars play at Emperor, yeah, but I like that, because a detailed AAR of a game played at a high level can reveal a lot about the game. Nathan, Catt, Alexman... I like reading about their games (and others, those were just off the top of my head!) and learning. And I don't see any arrogance or elitism in their posts.

AU games are typically created to be played with or without the mod, with or without PTW, and on any level of play.

I think that what Theseus wants is to make AU more accessible. Some of this has been done, it's just that a couple of key threads probably should be topped in the strategy forum and/or linked to from the main page.

-Arrian

	03-07-2003 00:35									#23
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We could also make a grade system. To have it more like a university

	03-07-2003 00:41									#24
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I personally don't like the idea of scoring or grades. In fact, that's probably why I have little to no interest in GotM.

To me, AU isn't about scoring/grading, but rather about playing a game along with other people and discussing it during and after. No pressure, but still plenty of opportunity to learn.

-Arrian

	03-07-2003 00:43									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master We could also make a grade system. To have it more like a university

That's certainly an idea that can be discussed. We'd have to find a way to implement it well though. Part of the problem is the subjectiveness. Just because you start in the same area, different things happen to each player. That's part of the fun of course and part of the learning, but it might make it difficult to grade. For example on AU402 I've had extremely poor galley luck which has made contact with other civs very tough. Some of the other players had contacts well before the time I did.

	03-07-2003 00:44									#26
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No one else would need to see it. We could have a A B C F or what ever for each game. Depending on the score.

	03-07-2003 01:02									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I personally don't like the idea of scoring or grades. In fact, that's probably why I have little to no interest in GotM. To me, AU isn't about scoring/grading, but rather about playing a game along with other people and discussing it during and after. No pressure, but still plenty of opportunity to learn. -Arrian

This is why AU was created.

This is why I suggested reviving MT if rankings, etc is a major issue. Keep AU in the Strategy and bring back MT or create something new in the General.

	03-07-2003 02:04									#28
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The one and only reason GOTM gets more attention than AU is because it is competitive, including a highly-refined ranking system.

This is quite natural, if you think about it. Most people that play strategy computer games have the drive to win, else they would be tinkering around with The Sims or some other inane title (apologies to all Sims fans...). After getting bored of the SP experience, you can either turn MP (which, to most, is unsatisfying) or comparative games like GOTM (even 'Poly had these before the Powers-That-Be decided it was not worth the effort). The success of GOTM is proof that people love comparing their skills against everybody else's.

The goal of AU is to learn about the game, not simply "be the best". At first I thought GOTMs were rather boring because the best players would never reveal their "secrets" (just look at SVC, which is surprisingly devoid of any strategy-talk...no offense to Aeson). Happily, this trend is gone and now and the GOTMs are now a pretty good community for learning (as far as I can tell). At the same time, some competition has arisen in AU, although nothing too drastic.

The question is therefore: do we make AU a more competitive arena? Doing so makes it more like GOTM, which kind of sucks because the CFC and 'Poly would have to start competing with each other for players (and who at 'Poly is willing to put in as much effort as Cracker!?). Leaving AU as it is, however, means that it will never be as popular as GOTM. I see no middle ground, although I would very much like to hear suggestions.

Incidentally, it's quite funny that people think that AU is more complicated than GOTM. The first and only GOTM I tried to play I had to read about 10 web pages full of FAQs, then had to screw around for about half an hour to install the required graphics packages (a process which is horribly explained by the organizers...something to improve on, in case you're reading). Although it may be a bit harder to find an AU course (because they're not linked to from the main 'Poly page), at least once you're there it's a simple download and you're ready to play within a couple of minutes.


Dominae

	03-07-2003 02:24									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The question is therefore: do we make AU a more competitive arena? Doing so makes it more like GOTM, which kind of sucks because the CFC and 'Poly would have to start competing with each other for players (and who at 'Poly is willing to put in as much effort as Cracker!?). Leaving AU as it is, however, means that it will never be as popular as GOTM. I see no middle ground, although I would very much like to hear suggestions.

That is why I think that IF we do try to institute a competition style AU that we should keep non-competitive courses as well. Not everyone will want to play competitive courses and might even be turned off by them. But I would imagine that people who didn't want to participate in the competitions might follow them in threads (depending on how it is set up). I think this whole idea needs a lot more discussion though before anything is implemented. We'd need to iron out a lot of different possibilities to make it work as well as promoting the heck out of AU courses. Plus we'd need input from Mark and Dan whether or not AU can become a "front page" option or not.

More thoughts anyone?

	03-07-2003 02:29									#30
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That is what happened to me when I wanted to try a few of the recent Gotm. I read all the FAQ stuff and started to install all the pieces and decide I did not want that much bother.
I figure it would be some learnig curve to figure out what all the units were about.
The other small part was not knowing what happened after the cut off date. It was like reading part of book and losing the book, what happen?