05-07-2003 00:34									#61
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quote: Is there a single Democrat that would have a chance in the South against Bush?

Ya, Zell Miller for one . Bob Graham for another. Graham is/was running.

quote: I can't see any reason why Dean wouldn't carry every one of those states, with the exceptions of Pennsylvania and New Mexico.

Cause he's more liberal than Gore, and Bush is more popular now. I'd bet that the states that went narrowly for Gore end up going to Bush this time if he runs against Dean. Or maybe even Kerry.

	05-07-2003 01:16									#62
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The thing that makes Dean "a libera" is his opposition to the war. IN most other, domestic issues he is only slightly to the left of Gore, like in gun control and medicare and so forth.

As for Iraq: if by a year from now 1) no WMD's yet, and 2) still 140,000+ American troops there wihout Bush having gone on TV and making a big seech outlining why and how much longer they will be there, then Dan's original opposition to the war will not be a significant handicap.

	05-07-2003 01:19									#63
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Oh, and Bush's core numbers are under 50% (meaning that having been asked if they would vote for Bush, no matter whom he ran against, Bush came in under 50%, aorund 42-3%). Bush won the middle with his foreign policy, but if that turns sour, there is plenty of room open for a challenge. Bush biggest advantage will the the fact that he will go into the elction with record amounts of money. the dems. simply wil not be able to match all the money Bush will have.

	05-07-2003 01:22									#64
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The Dem primary season is going to be interesting with 9 candidates. I can only imagine the bloodletting that will happen.

	05-07-2003 01:24									#65
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I consider Kerry and Dean moderates. I wouldn't vote for either one.

	05-07-2003 01:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The thing that makes Dean "a libera" is his opposition to the war. IN most other, domestic issues he is only slightly to the left of Gore, like in gun control and medicare and so forth.

Then there's that bit about tax rates and spending in the People's Republic of Vermont.

	05-07-2003 01:39									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I consider Kerry and Dean moderates. I wouldn't vote for either one.

Then you deserve four more years of Bush and Ashcroft.

	05-07-2003 01:40									#68
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Oh, and Bush's core numbers are under 50% (meaning that having been asked if they would vote for Bush, no matter whom he ran against, Bush came in under 50%, aorund 42-3%).

Those type of hypotheticals always change at the ballot box, when you see what the opposition really is, and contemplate four years of that.

That's the only way Davis won reelection.

	05-07-2003 01:41									#69
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Then there's that bit about tax rates and spending in the People's Republic of Vermont.

And if that is the way the people of vermont like it, then good for them.

	05-07-2003 01:43									#70
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The greens are lucky to get their two percent looney fringe protest vote, and that's it.

They'd do a lot better if you had proportional representation. But aside from that, calling Ralph Nader a looney fringe candidate just shows how far away the US has drifted from the rest of the civilized world. Nader is only campaigning for what most centre left parties in Europe, Canada and Australasia take as a matter of course.

Nader is so moderate it isn't funny. Our old right-wing NZ government enacted a consumer policy that could have come straight from his mouth (wildly popular act too, I might add).

	05-07-2003 01:45									#71
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Those type of hypotheticals always change at the ballot box, when you see what the opposition really is, and contemplate four years of that. That's the only way Davis won reelection.

Bush has core support, but also core strident opposition. He is a polerizing figure. And Dean is not as far off form the whole electorate as Simons was form HIS whole electorate. After all, Dean is por-choice, as was Gore. He got a very high rating form the NRA of all people, environmentally he is not much to the left of Gore. Ans as for the economy and Iraq, those things are up in the air. Bush is the favorite, but he is not by any stretch invincible.

	05-07-2003 01:47									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Bush is the favorite, but he is not by any stretch invincible.

Not at all, but you have to admit the Democrat's ability at self-immolation is impressive.

	05-07-2003 01:51									#73
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The question is how vicious the primaries will be. I think that a vicious set of them will hurt the dems, and I can guess that Bush will spend a lo9t in them to hurt the dems. even ebfore the main campaing starts.
Half the dem. camp is made up of candidate who don't have any chance. Beside Kuni-whatever, Braun and Shrpton, i would add Edwards.

	05-07-2003 02:09									#74
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I don't see why you're writing Edwards off. He's not a frontrunner, but he's definitely not in the same lowly category with Sharpton, Braun and Kucinich.

	05-07-2003 02:30									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon They'd do a lot better if you had proportional representation. But aside from that, calling Ralph Nader a looney fringe candidate just shows how far away the US has drifted from the rest of the civilized world. Nader is only campaigning for what most centre left parties in Europe, Canada and Australasia take as a matter of course.

Now look at our economic size and relative power in the world. Yes, I suppose you could call moving further ahead of the pack "drifting."

quote: Nader is so moderate it isn't funny. Our old right-wing NZ government enacted a consumer policy that could have come straight from his mouth (wildly popular act too, I might add).

I'm sure that helps explain NZ's economic might in the world.

	05-07-2003 02:51									#76
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar So the only democrat you could vote for is a republican in all but name? I could probably vote for Dean without holding my nose. I would really like to see Al Sharpton as president personally.

I see you belong to the "politics should be entertaining" camp.

	05-07-2003 03:03									#77
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BTW, anybody seen what Gary Larson (Doonesbury) is doing to the Dean camp?

edit: oops -- not Larson, Trudeau. Dammit.

Last edited by The Mad Monk on 05-07-2003 at 07:37

	05-07-2003 04:03									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I don't see why you're writing Edwards off. He's not a frontrunner, but he's definitely not in the same lowly category with Sharpton, Braun and Kucinich.

He does not have to be as low as them to be in the "not a chance" category. Liberman, Kerry, dean, even gephard and Graham have spoken more about policy and what they might do than him.

	05-07-2003 04:07									#79
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Since when does policy have anything to do with being the nominee? Edwards is young, charismatic, Southern and has a lot of campaign money. Inexperience is the only thing holding him back. Even so, I rate his chances better than Lieberman and Graham.

	05-07-2003 04:24									#80
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Liberman has mroe name reconition, and he can always pull the line that his views are in concert with America's. Edwards sure is pretty, but Charismatic? The times I have seen him speak, he come of as another Quayle, whom we should remember was seen as a young, vital support to the Elder Bush.

I agrtee that Graham does not have much of a chance, and Gephard would have an upward struggle as well.

	05-07-2003 04:33									#81
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quote: Liberman has mroe name reconition, and he can always pull the line that his views are in concert with America's.

Lieberman would do well in the general election, but he'll never get through the primaries. There's far too many hyper-liberals out there who would rather see the Democratic Party go down in flames than support a moderate candidate.

	05-07-2003 04:36									#82
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"BTW, anybody seen what Gary Larson (Doonesbury) is doing to the Dean camp?"
No. What's he doing?

"Then there's that bit about tax rates and spending in the People's Republic of Vermont."
Vermont is a very well run state, fiscally. I'd certainly rather live there than in tijuana or wherever you are. To call Vermont a "people's republic" in terms of economics, shows precisely how much you know about Vermont - very little.

	05-07-2003 05:30									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'd bet that the states that went narrowly for Gore end up going to Bush this time if he runs against Dean.

As I said, Pennsylvania and New Mexico. All the other states that Gore won, he did so by a relatively comfortable margin. I'm going by strict off-the-top-of-my-ass recollection here, but other than those two states, Florida, New Hampshire, and Wisconsin, I don't think any other state was closer than 5% or so.

	05-07-2003 06:02									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Now look at our economic size and relative power in the world. Yes, I suppose you could call moving further ahead of the pack "drifting."

What's the point of all that when you are being spanked by Canada, Sweden, Norway, etc. when it comes to living standards? Not much I'd say.

Unless you are well off, the United States is a pretty shitty country to live in. The television is moronic and the papers aren't much better, crime is high and the social services are a joke. And as for education, well.... post nuclear would be the best way of describing it. And I wouldn't house a dog in the shacks some of you live in.

Face it, Canada is better. The people are nicer and you can walk to the store at 3 in the morning without being mugged.

The Bush vision of America is one in which the people are well off, ignorant and violent. So far he's winning on the latter counts.

quote: I'm sure that helps explain NZ's economic might in the world.

We don't have much crime or pollution and for quite a while had the world's highest living standards. But then the government decided on market reforms and ****ed it all up. But I'd much rather live there than in the US.

Plus we have a decent electoral system which prevents the government screwing us over and leads to much higher voter participation.

	05-07-2003 06:04									#85
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Vermont is a very well run state, fiscally. I'd certainly rather live there than in tijuana or wherever you are. To call Vermont a "people's republic" in terms of economics, shows precisely how much you know about Vermont - very little.

Exactly. It's amazing what you can get when you realize that government based on religious bigotry and class warfare is a fundamentally stupid idea.

	05-07-2003 06:39									#86
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quote: But aside from that, calling Ralph Nader a looney fringe candidate just shows how far away the US has drifted from the rest of the civilized world. Nader is only campaigning for what most centre left parties in Europe, Canada and Australasia take as a matter of course. Nader is so moderate it isn't funny.

Moderate?!?! Nader desires nothing less than the complete and total destruction of the American economy! The Green party's platform includes a (mandatory) 40-hour work week! Outrageous! I work more than 40 hours a week during the summer, I'm only 17! My wage is well above the minimum, even compeitative with the minimum proposed by the Green party, and I sure as hell couldn't live off off what I make, even if I worked year round. Not to mention that I wouldn't have a job for long with those policies in action. Policies such as this will be the doom of the USA.

Oh, wait, isn't that policy in the works for your laughable excuse for a European Constitution? Sorry.

Personally, I'm a little displeased with the shocking and rampant attempt to destroy everything that lives or grows on the part of the Bush Administration, and a Dem (or a Green) would be much better at the enviornment. Other than that, I don't see why I should be motivated to vote Dem. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

I would gladly vote Lieberman in the primary. If he wasn't a baby-killer, I would without question vote for him instead of Bush in the actual election.

	05-07-2003 06:41									#87
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quote: Exactly. It's amazing what you can get when you realize that government based on religious bigotry and class warfare is a fundamentally stupid idea.

With an opinion like that, why aren't you a conservative? Don't you know that the Democratic party in America is the one all about class warfare and seperation-of-church-and-state bigotry?

	05-07-2003 07:39									#88
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Uh, unions are a good thing. They promote pairity of bargaining power between workers and management. Oh wait, I see, you don't like pairity of bargaining power. Damn worjers! Trying to get paid what they are worth!

Yeah, like those longshoremen data-entry clerks getting paid 98 k a year. Real workingmen, those.

Unions are great - extract a part of a worker's paycheck to support those BA's, plunder the pension fund, and generally give 'em no better a deal than they'd make non-union. But create a culture where "we all get paid the same anyway, why bust our ass?"

I've refused to ever join a union working my way up from minimum wage, and I don't have much use for them now as a general rule, although I prefer IBEW contractors to non-union heavy electrical contractors.

	05-07-2003 07:41									#89
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "BTW, anybody seen what Gary Larson (Doonesbury) is doing to the Dean camp?" No. What's he doing?

Oops -- not Gary Larson, Gary Trudeau -- my mistake.

Anyways...









The above links were acquire courtesy of Ming, a longtime Doonesbury fan.

(Who knew?)

	05-07-2003 07:42									#90
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Then you deserve four more years of Bush and Ashcroft.

That's hard MtG. That's too hard.