05-07-2003 07:47									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Thud Moderate?!?! Nader desires nothing less than the complete and total destruction of the American economy! The Green party's platform includes a (mandatory) 40-hour work week! Outrageous! I work more than 40 hours a week during the summer, I'm only 17!

Um, Thud....

I hate to tell you this, but it's the standard in most civilised countries. After 40 hours you get paid overtime.

quote: My wage is well above the minimum, even compeitative with the minimum proposed by the Green party, and I sure as hell couldn't live off off what I make, even if I worked year round. Not to mention that I wouldn't have a job for long with those policies in action. Policies such as this will be the doom of the USA.

Yeah, Canada is doomed, the economy is failing, quick everyone leave before it all falls down.

quote: Oh, wait, isn't that policy in the works for your laughable excuse for a European Constitution? Sorry.

I (currently) live in Canada.

quote: Personally, I'm a little displeased with the shocking and rampant attempt to destroy everything that lives or grows on the part of the Bush Administration, and a Dem (or a Green) would be much better at the enviornment. Other than that, I don't see why I should be motivated to vote Dem. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Ain't broke? The fact that you can work over 40 hours a week for above minimum wage and still not have enough to live on suggests to you that nothing is broken?

Crazy...

quote: I would gladly vote Lieberman in the primary. If he wasn't a baby-killer, I would without question vote for him instead of Bush in the actual election.

A baby killer? Groan.....

	05-07-2003 07:50									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Thud With an opinion like that, why aren't you a conservative? Don't you know that the Democratic party in America is the one all about class warfare and seperation-of-church-and-state bigotry?

If they actually stuck up for what they are supposed to believe in the Democrats would be all for stopping class warfare by preventing the rape of the poor.

And I don't think I can take the church and state stuff seriously. Not everyone in the US believes in God and not all of those who do believe in the same one. Hence making one religion the state religion and giving it primacy over all the others is a fundamentally stupid idea.

Anyway, religion is just silly. I suppose the state has to humour the cranks who fall for it, but it certainly shouldn't be actively promoted. Likewise, belief in fairies or Atlantis shouldn't be promoted either.

	05-07-2003 07:53									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What's the point of all that when you are being spanked by Canada, Sweden, Norway, etc. when it comes to living standards? Not much I'd say.

It depends what you call "living standards" but if someone wants to pretend they're ahead, fine by me.

quote: The television is moronic and the papers aren't much better,

And that's a government problem?

quote: crime is high and the social services are a joke.

Hardly, but I guess if you're into sit on your ass and get cradle to grave welfare, things might be tough here, unless you decide to get motivated to be self-sufficient.

quote: And as for education, well.... post nuclear would be the best way of describing it.

Considering there's 50 states, a lot of variability between districts in those states, and private educational systems as well, I somehow doubt you're a real expert.

quote: And I wouldn't house a dog in the shacks some of you live in.

So the government should be in the provide everyone housing business, too?

quote: Face it, Canada is better. The people are nicer and you can walk to the store at 3 in the morning without being mugged.

Canada is a big empty space where you freeze your balls off five months of the year. And I can walk to the store at 3 in the morning everyplace I've ever lived in the US, and here in Tijuana, so Maybe you need to get more knowledge than from watching Schwarzenegger movies or Escape from New York,

quote: The Bush vision of America is one in which the people are well off, ignorant and violent. So far he's winning on the latter counts.

You mean Bush has a vision? I'm glad I'm speaking with one of the administration insiders who knows what it is, because I was under the impression he rather lacked one.

quote: We don't have much crime or pollution and for quite a while had the world's highest living standards. But then the government decided on market reforms and ****ed it all up. But I'd much rather live there than in the US.

Well, if you have no population, and sit on a shitload of natural resources, then it's not too tough. Considering the population and resource levels, you didn't do that great.

quote: Plus we have a decent electoral system which prevents the government screwing us over and leads to much higher voter participation.

Well, the US has to have at least one weakness.

	05-07-2003 08:02									#94
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I don´t understand this discussion. regarding the "successes" of Bush´s presidency even a cancer boil should be able to beat him in the next elections. what did Bush actually accomplish for the USA up to now?

- he produced an unbelievable national debt
- he increased unemployness
- he started two wars with two (virtually) disarmed countries, leaving them back in anarchy.
- he continually disrespects or loops out the constitution
- he continually disrespects international treaties
- he destroyed the NATO
- he destroyed America´s international credibility and reputation
- he let a terrible terror-attack happen, although it was was forseable and preventable

can actually anyone name any good thing that GWB did for his country before and during his presidency?

	05-07-2003 08:05									#95
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "Then there's that bit about tax rates and spending in the People's Republic of Vermont." Vermont is a very well run state, fiscally.

Yeah, a small state, low population, little industrial base, but plenty of tourists importing dollars, and Boston and other NE types with second homes, etc.

And the highest personal income tax rate in the US, except it kicks in at a higher income level than Californias, so Vermont really only comes in number two.

A stunningly realistic model for fiscal management of the Federal government.

quote: I'd certainly rather live there than in tijuana or wherever you are.

Good for you. When you're freezing your balls off this winter, I'll send you some pictures of lithe, tanned hot, bikini-clad chicas on the beach a few hundred yards from my house.

quote: To call Vermont a "people's republic" in terms of economics, shows precisely how much you know about Vermont - very little.

A small state with high taxes that relies a lot on capital inflow from out of staters. Yep, sounds about right.

	05-07-2003 08:07									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Since when does policy have anything to do with being the nominee? Edwards is young, charismatic, Southern and has a lot of campaign money. Inexperience is the only thing holding him back. Even so, I rate his chances better than Lieberman and Graham.

I'd put my bet on Liebermann-Edwards as the most likely to win ticket in the general election.

	05-07-2003 08:14									#97
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quote: I'd put my bet on Liebermann-Edwards as the most likely to win ticket in the general election.

I agree. It's not going to happen, though.

	05-07-2003 08:16									#98
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quote: I hate to tell you this, but it's the standard in most civilised countries. After 40 hours you get paid overtime.

Um.. Agathon, if would help if you actually READ HIS POST! What does 'mandatory' mean? That's right, no more. He's not complaining because he'll get overtime pay over 40 hours, he's complaining because HE CAN'T WORK AT ALL over 40 hours. I don't think anywhere in the world has a mandatory work ceiling, where you are not allowed to work any more.

But of you just read what you want to .

quote: The fact that you can work over 40 hours a week for above minimum wage and still not have enough to live on suggests to you that nothing is broken?

You have plenty to live on if you work 40 hours a week for minimum wage. But of course, if you gotta have your cable TV and second car, you may run into problems fiscally .

	05-07-2003 08:17									#99
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Most Americans are too ignorant to realize Shrub's slip-ups.

MtG, I can't belive you deny Switzerland and Sweden having the highest standard of living in the world. At leat the Swedes get free health care and have no rligious loonys running thier parliment.

	05-07-2003 08:18									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Odin At leat the Swedes get free health care

No one gets free health care.

	05-07-2003 08:21									#101
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc No one gets free health care.

Okay, the rich pay MORE for thier healthcare, and people don't have to worry about being ripped by HMO's.

	05-07-2003 08:22									#102
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Why worry about HMO's when you can get ripped off by the government instead, right?

	05-07-2003 08:23									#103
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It depends what you call "living standards" but if someone wants to pretend they're ahead, fine by me.

The UN Human Development Index.

quote: And that's a government problem?

Yes. You see, if you have public broadcasting and proper regulation the standard goes up.

quote: Hardly, but I guess if you're into sit on your ass and get cradle to grave welfare, things might be tough here, unless you decide to get motivated to be self-sufficient.

It doesn't have anything to do with sitting on one's ass. When NZ was at the apex of its experiment with the welfare state unemployment was virtually nil.

And it doesn't have anything to do with self sufficiency either. State healthcare provision is simply more efficient. Americans spend about twice as much per head on health care as Canadians for worse service.

Nations with brains have realised that the fundmental question of government is not how far the state interferes in people's lives, but what is the simplest and most efficient way of delivering the services people want.

quote: Considering there's 50 states, a lot of variability between districts in those states, and private educational systems as well, I somehow doubt you're a real expert.

I've met enough of you. Look at how you do in comparative tests.

quote: So the government should be in the provide everyone housing business, too?

No, the government should be in the "make sure everyone has an opportunity to feed, clothe and house themselves" business.

quote: Canada is a big empty space where you freeze your balls off five months of the year.

Don't be such a *****. -30 isn't that cold.

quote: And I can walk to the store at 3 in the morning everyplace I've ever lived in the US, and here in Tijuana, so.

Oh. So that's why the hotel I stayed in in LA last year had a huge notice on your bed telling you not to go outside or open your door. Or why it had a heavily armed security guard in the lobby. Silly me...

quote: Maybe you need to get more knowledge than from watching Schwarzenegger movies or Escape from New York,

And maybe you need to stop dissing the welfare state without knowing anything about it. It works. I grew up in one and the principle is quite simple. When the welfare state is in the ascendency everyone does pretty well, there is no abject poverty crime is low and everyone gets a good education. When you start removing the welfare state a minority of people are better off but everyone else slides and poverty, crime, preventable illness and all the other evils come flooding back.

Do you know that In NZ I think I saw in my entire life three homeless people. Only three - the whole time I lived there. New Zealanders who go abroad are often shocked when they realise that chronic homelessness exists.

quote: You mean Bush has a vision? I'm glad I'm speaking with one of the administration insiders who knows what it is, because I was under the impression he rather lacked one.

Come on.

quote: Well, if you have no population, and sit on a shitload of natural resources, then it's not too tough. Considering the population and resource levels, you didn't do that great.

It has nothing to do with that at all. The reason that Canada does so well is that it has a well organised and efficient social system for the distribution of resources. People don't have the knee-jerk fear of the Government that their southern neighbours have and easily accept government provision of services when it would be cheaper.

quote: Well, the US has to have at least one weakness.

If you got rid of it, the rest would follow.

	05-07-2003 08:24									#104
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quote: MtG, I can't belive you deny Switzerland and Sweden having the highest standard of living in the world.

I'll deny it as well . Standard of Living = GDP/capita. The US is only behind Luxembourg (and perhaps Belgium), IIRC.

quote: Why worry about HMO's when you can get ripped off by the government instead, right?

Isn't that the same thing... seeing as HMOs were basically created by the government

	05-07-2003 08:26									#105
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quote: Americans spend about twice as much per head on health care as Canadians for worse service.

You do realize that most of that is the rich paying for super-expensive treatments which they don't do too much in Canada, right?

	05-07-2003 08:28									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: MtG, I can't belive you deny Switzerland and Sweden having the highest standard of living in the world. I'll deny it as well . Standard of Living = GDP/capita. The US is only behind Luxembourg (and perhaps Belgium), IIRC.

Nope.

The UN Human Development Index was created to correct this silly notion.

The whole reason that GDP per capita is a dumb measure is that if a huge natural disaster occurs in your area the GDP per capita goes up because of all the repair work that needs to be done. Hardly an increase in SOL is it?

	05-07-2003 08:31									#107
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What does it measure, then?

	05-07-2003 08:32									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Americans spend about twice as much per head on health care as Canadians for worse service. You do realize that most of that is the rich paying for super-expensive treatments which they don't do too much in Canada, right?

Nope. It's overheads.

	05-07-2003 08:34									#109
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk What does it measure, then?

A whole host of things - press freedom; governmental corruption, civic freedoms; wealth; etc.


You can read it for free if you like.

http://hdr.undp.org/

	05-07-2003 08:36									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The UN Human Development Index.

Yet another font of wisdom from the UN, no doubt.

quote: Yes. You see, if you have public broadcasting and proper regulation the standard goes up.

We have public broadcasting. And lots of private broadcasting other than the commercial networks. And "proper regulation" in general means letting people see what they want, i.e. letting the market decide. That's why our **** TV is so popular elsewhere, that conservatives in other countries whine about cultural contamination, etc.

quote: It doesn't have anything to do with sitting on one's ass. When NZ was at the apex of its experiment with the welfare state unemployment was virtually nil. And it doesn't have anything to do with self sufficiency either. State healthcare provision is simply more efficient. Americans spend about twice as much per head on health care as Canadians for worse service.

And a huge portion of what Americans spend is directly related to insurance and liability costs, not medical costs. That is, if an MD or hospital ****s up, they can be held accountable through the legal system.

quote: Nations with brains have realised that the fundmental question of government is not how far the state interferes in people's lives, but what is the simplest and most efficient way of delivering the services people want.

Yeah, which is why I've heard plenty of people saying they don't care how much government infringes liberty or privacy or what not, as long as it bribes them with some form of wealth redistribution. Enjoy it, and we'll keep doing things our way, while being the largest economic and geopolitical power in the world.

quote: I've met enough of you. Look at how you do in comparative tests.

Oooooh, next thing you know, you'll be referring to us as "you people." Are you feeling some white man's burden, perhaps? Tests, shmests. We also drive the biggest economy in the world, sorry, so maybe y'all should study for tests less, and work on suceeding in the real world more.

quote: No, the government should be in the "make sure everyone has an opportunity to feed, clothe and house themselves" business.

And as long as it keeps taxes low, barriers low, and markets fair, it succeeds.

quote: Don't be such a *****. -30 isn't that cold.

I spent a winter working up in Montana, mostly outdoors. When you're in -30, I'll be hanging out on the beach getting a tan, using my portable solar panel to power my laptop. Enjoy.

quote: Oh. So that's why the hotel I stayed in in LA last year had a huge notice on your bed telling you not to go outside or open your door. Or why it had a heavily armed security guard in the lobby. Silly me...

Well, if you stay in the nastiest neighborhood in LA, then you're not too bright.

quote: Come on.

Well, you insist there's a vision there.

	05-07-2003 08:38									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'll deny it as well . Standard of Living = GDP/capita. The US is only behind Luxembourg (and perhaps Belgium), IIRC.

Silly Siddi - a high GDP per capita can be achieved by slave driving your population for 80 hour weeks for **** pay while all the wealth remains concentrated at the top of the heirarchy.

Working 80 hour weeks for squat while never seeing the money is not my idea of high quality of life.

	05-07-2003 08:40									#112
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Actually this year's report (due out this week) has Canada dropping to equal with the US at 0.937 - can't see why.

This just in the news.

	05-07-2003 08:47									#113
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yet another font of wisdom from the UN, no doubt.

I'd believe them over you.

quote: We have public broadcasting.

Yes with small letters.

quote: And lots of private broadcasting other than the commercial networks. And "proper regulation" in general means letting people see what they want, i.e. letting the market decide. That's why our **** TV is so popular elsewhere, that conservatives in other countries whine about cultural contamination, etc.

Yes and no. People like the entertainment stuff but also want better news.

quote: And a huge portion of what Americans spend is directly related to insurance and liability costs, not medical costs. That is, if an MD or hospital ****s up, they can be held accountable through the legal system.

YES!!!!!!! And this is one of the great stupidities of the system. Move to a no fault compensation system, it saves millions and leaves doctors to be disciplined by the medical council or the police.

quote: Yeah, which is why I've heard plenty of people saying they don't care how much government infringes liberty or privacy or what not, as long as it bribes them with some form of wealth redistribution. Enjoy it, and we'll keep doing things our way, while being the largest economic and geopolitical power in the world.

It doesn't bother me if you're all too dumb to spend this wealth on making your lives better, but would rather spend it on costly military programs that don't work.

quote: Oooooh, next thing you know, you'll be referring to us as "you people." Are you feeling some white man's burden, perhaps? Tests, shmests. We also drive the biggest economy in the world, sorry, so maybe y'all should study for tests less, and work on suceeding in the real world more.

What's that got to do with it? What's the point of having a bigger economy if you keep getting beat by socialist nations like Norway and Sweden? Those damn commies, how dare they be better.

quote: And as long as it keeps taxes low, barriers low, and markets fair, it succeeds.

It makes things worse.

quote: I spent a winter working up in Montana, mostly outdoors. When you're in -30, I'll be hanging out on the beach getting a tan, using my portable solar panel to power my laptop. Enjoy.

I actually like the cold. I can't stand the heat.

quote: Well, if you stay in the nastiest neighborhood in LA, then you're not too bright.

We have no neighbourhoods like this in NZ.

quote: Well, you insist there's a vision there.

There is, it's just **** Cheney's.

	05-07-2003 08:52									#114
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"I'll send you some pictures of lithe, tanned hot, bikini-clad chicas on the beach a few hundred yards from my house."

Too bad yr married, eh? You make a provocative argument for Mexico as opposed to Vermont, but I know where my heart is. Our breasts my be smaller, but our souls are larger.

Plus, Vermont may have high taxes, but it has a great education system, is not in debt, and is generally well run. Of course the state of Vermont is not like the United States economy wise, but I'm sure Howard Dean understands that...

	05-07-2003 09:07									#115
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quote: a high GDP per capita can be achieved by slave driving your population for 80 hour weeks for **** pay while all the wealth remains concentrated at the top of the heirarchy.

Not really. You'd have a tiny wealthy class and a large impoverished class. Because wealth in concentrated by a few in such a system. GDP/capita would be low. For example see Egypt. I'm sure they'd be glad to know that their GDP/capita (adjusted for PPP) of $3,700 is high .

GDP/capita is the definition of standard of living.

quote: What's the point of having a bigger economy if you keep getting beat by socialist nations like Norway and Sweden?

GDP/capita (adjusted for PPP)

US: $36,300
Norway: $31,800
Sweden: $25,400

I think we are kinda kicking ass in the economic department .

quote: We have no neighbourhoods like this in NZ.

You also have no cities .

Los Angeles is also more populous than your ENTIRE COUNTRY .

quote: Actually this year's report (due out this week) has Canada dropping to equal with the US at 0.937

Your own report is going against you, I love it!

	05-07-2003 09:14									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: a high GDP per capita can be achieved by slave driving your population for 80 hour weeks for **** pay while all the wealth remains concentrated at the top of the heirarchy. Not really. You'd have a tiny wealthy class and a large impoverished class. Because wealth in concentrated by a few in such a system. GDP/capita would be low. For example see Egypt. I'm sure they'd be glad to know that their GDP/capita (adjusted for PPP) of $3,700 is high .

All you would need is a more productive Egyptian workforce. GDP is a measure (roughly) of what is produced, not a distributive measure.

quote: GDP/capita (adjusted for PPP) US: $36,300 Norway: $31,800 Sweden: $25,400 I think we are kinda kicking ass in the economic department .

Of course, if your poor or lower middle class where are you better off? Probably Scandinavia or Canada.

quote: Los Angeles is also more populous than your ENTIRE COUNTRY .

We have a ghetto bigger than some guys country? Oh yeah, I'd brag about that ... (yes, yes I know LA has SOME nice parts)

	05-07-2003 09:18									#117
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quote: GDP is a measure (roughly) of what is produced, not a distributive measure.

Yeah, but you ain't gonna have a high GDP if most people are in poverty and a few guys are all rich. After all, someone's gotta buy the stuff .

quote: Of course, if your poor or lower middle class where are you better off? Probably Scandinavia or Canada.

Neither! California, damn it! Or at least somewhere warm

Anyway, he said that our economy was getting beaten by Norway and Sweden. Showing him that ain't true.

	05-07-2003 09:19									#118
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Imran:
I assume you are trolling when you pretend that GDP/capita is the only and accurate measure of a population's well being, but...
There is more to the population's well being that the average of the country's production. Well being can be defined by the quality of health, education, environment (in the general meaning), safety, comfort etc. a population is willing to afford.

Should the GDP be misused in this regard, or should it be wildy unequally distributed (such as in the US), it may not serve these goals.

Ask AS or Nationalist (I think there are the only people here who live in impoverished areas) if the quality of life in the US is the best in the world. Maybe you'll hear a different tune that what our businessmen are saying.

	05-07-2003 09:26									#119
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quote: I assume you are trolling when you pretend that GDP/capita is the only and accurate measure of a population's well being, but...

I'm not saying it's the ONLY and accurate measure. I'm saying its the BEST measure. The amount of production a society makes divided by the number provides a good measure for the wellbeing of the population.

quote: Should the GDP be misused in this regard, or should it be wildy unequally distributed (such as in the US), it may not serve these goals.

It depends if you think it is 'wildly unequally distributed' in the US. I think not. Sure the top 1% have a lot of dough. But the rest of us are doing just fine, and make more than enough and have a superb quality of life.

When my family was lower middle class (back in the early 80s), we weren't bad off. We were fine! We just didn't spend lavishly.

quote: Ask AS or Nationalist (I think there are the only people here who live in impoverished areas) if the quality of life in the US is the best in the world. Maybe you'll hear a different tune that what our businessmen are saying.

I doubt it (from Nationalist). I'm not sure what Speer would say... but when's the last time you ever thought he was right .

	05-07-2003 09:26									#120
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"(yes, yes I know LA has SOME nice parts)"

No, it doesn't.