05-07-2003 23:22									#61
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quote: The potshot at the Israeli government was also apperciatend.

If I go to Israel, buy fertilizer, blow myself up to tiny pieces taking two Jews with me - next day Israeli government will probably tear down a couple houses and maybe even kill someone, and you will post on apolyton that Islam is a religion of hate. While in fact I'm catholic, and somwhere in Vatican Pope laughs diabolicaly "hahaha another one suceeded!" - but I digress

Weird discussion we are having

	05-07-2003 23:26									#62
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quote: Israelis don't have prejudices against all Muslims, you know...

They don't?

	05-07-2003 23:42									#63
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion quote: The potshot at the Israeli government was also apperciatend. If I go to Israel, buy fertilizer, blow myself up to tiny pieces taking two Jews with me - next day Israeli government will probably tear down a couple houses and maybe even kill someone, and you will post on apolyton that Islam is a religion of hate. While in fact I'm catholic, and somwhere in Vatican Pope laughs diabolicaly "hahaha another one suceeded!" - but I digress Weird discussion we are having

Where the **** do you pull this scenario's consequences from? oh wait, I know.

If you'd blow yourself, the anti-terrorism authorities would know that. Remember when a british citizen, probably from Al-Quida comminted a terror act in Tel Aviv? the actions were totally different. When homes are demolished, and people killed have direct connections to the act, and to the person that commited it.

	05-07-2003 23:53									#64
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Azazel what I am saying is that fast retaliatory action by governments can make mistakes (there are countless ways I can blow myself up without anyone knowing I am not muslim) and is therefore a bad thing.

In a democracy, such as Israel, government will react in that way because of popular pressure. And popular pressure is when people/voters reply to news of bombing that Islam is a religion of hate and so on.


Ok, it was hard work, but I showed you the connection of your reaction with government reaction

	06-07-2003 00:01									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't know what the problem is with Azazel's comments. I see the religion as the primary cause of the terrorists acts that it's followers commit. Does anyone disagree with that?

Religion is a part of it. The real problem in Israel/Palestine is a territory dispute.

Azazel's comments, his first one in this thread being the worst, do not help anything. They do not further discussion, they do not change Islam in anyway. All they do is anger people. Comments like that are a careless waste of webspace.

	06-07-2003 01:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Religion is a part of it. The real problem in Israel/Palestine is a territory dispute. Azazel's comments, his first one in this thread being the worst, do not help anything. They do not further discussion, they do not change Islam in anyway. All they do is anger people. Comments like that are a careless waste of webspace.

I am sorry. Please forgive me.

I don't intend to get buddy-buddy with religious fanatics. Sorry.

	06-07-2003 01:40									#67
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, Az.

	06-07-2003 01:48									#68
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While you forget your own history, you are willing to push it unto others.

Hatikvah

	06-07-2003 01:53									#69
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now could you speak like a human, and not say vague ?Oh, I forgot, you're trolling.

	06-07-2003 01:57									#70
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O-okaaaayyyy... this thread is going so figging off-topic now, so here's a small and worthy contribution which goes straight to the point which no one else has yet paid any attention to; the victims.

May you rest well. My sincerest condolences to all victims, wounded and relatives of those affected directly. My symphaties go with you.

	06-07-2003 01:58									#71
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They don't know this. I think it's pointless.

	06-07-2003 01:58									#72
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Ras's got a point definitely... condolences to families of the victims.

	06-07-2003 02:00									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't know what the problem is with Azazel's comments. I see the religion as the primary cause of the terrorists acts that it's followers commit. Does anyone disagree with that?

Yes. I don't recall seeing any Chechen resistance before the Russki's moved their tanks in.

To me, the religion has nothing to do with it. This is resistance against a BRUTAL occupation, done for the sake of oil.

And before anyone jumps in and says "what about Iraq then?" - the difference is that the occupiers of Iraq are there to change a regime and have pledged to get out.

No such pledge from the Russki's, I notice. Quite the reverse.

	06-07-2003 02:02									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Weird discussion. Would it have been morally better if the bombs had only been attached to objects and not people? If it had been a bunch of bombs hidden in garbage cans that kiled thse people, would there be some sort of difference? Suicide bombings are a method of bombing, a very effective one, both in terms of the ability to succeed and in the psychologial impact to the overall population, but it really make little difference to those killed. I can say safely that thoase people killed by secularist orgs. with good old fashioned bombs are just as dead. As for the real point: The question is how the Russians can solve the Chechnia issue.

I think suicide bombings scare people more than other forms. because it shows an extremist devotion that is well, good at causing terror. I mean these ppl are harkore yo!

	06-07-2003 02:04									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Yes. I don't recall seeing any Chechen resistance before the Russki's moved their tanks in. To me, the religion has nothing to do with it. This is resistance against a BRUTAL occupation, done for the sake of oil. And before anyone jumps in and says "what about Iraq then?" - the difference is that the occupiers of Iraq are there to change a regime and have pledged to get out. No such pledge from the Russki's, I notice. Quite the reverse.

What a load of crap...

a. There were attacks on Russian forces in dagestan, after Russia has pulled out from Chechniya in the mid 90s.

Oil? The amounts of Oil in Chechniya are small. There is a pipe going through it, IIRC, but a new pipe could be built around it. It would be cheaper than war.

How much do you actually know about that conflict?

	06-07-2003 02:08									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Asuka O-okaaaayyyy... this thread is going so figging off-topic now,

I'm glad it did and I thank Az for providing me with the means to do it.

	06-07-2003 02:10									#77
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No problem.

	06-07-2003 02:11									#78
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Gee, I guess all the audience at the concert would love to hear that.

	06-07-2003 02:12									#79
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Sorry, Asuka. You're probably right.

	06-07-2003 02:14									#80
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The IRA and Catholic Suicide bombers are not good Catholics and their actions are totally against the rules of the Church. The Crusades were a response to Moslem agression as the Moslems were taking over Christian territory and there were reports of Moslems denying acsess to Christian holy places, the Crusades were merely an effort to take back land that had been stolen from them.

	06-07-2003 02:14									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Asuka Gee, I guess all the audience at the concert would love to hear that.

Given that I don't feel the need to talk about each and every terrorist attack in the world and there were/are no Russian posters online to answer questions, what else was there to do?

	06-07-2003 02:16									#82
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Erm, well, basically you can let the topic rest as you know well, Dino.

	06-07-2003 02:17									#83
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Consider the jack a good natured bump then.

	06-07-2003 02:22									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel What a load of crap... a. There were attacks on Russian forces in dagestan, after Russia has pulled out from Chechniya in the mid 90s.

Never mind attacks on Russian forces. Who attacked civiians first? Russki's or Chechens?

That isn't important question though... the important one is, who is going to STOP first?

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Oil? The amounts of Oil in Chechniya are small. There is a pipe going through it, IIRC, but a new pipe could be built around it. It would be cheaper than war.

Politically, no it wouldn't. Nothing like a war of occupation to keep poeple diverted from the troubles at home.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel How much do you actually know about that conflict?

How much does anyone know, with a lack of reporting on the ground.

Which begs the question... what are the Russki's afraid of any sort of information leakage?

Perhaps they have a guilty conscience?

	06-07-2003 02:23									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The IRA and Catholic Suicide bombers are not good Catholics and their actions are totally against the rules of the Church. The Crusades were a response to Moslem agression as the Moslems were taking over Christian territory and there were reports of Moslems denying acsess to Christian holy places, the Crusades were merely an effort to take back land that had been stolen from them.

Lands that belonged to them? Christians lost the Holy land in 740 something ad. The crusades came in 1098, and mainly prosecuted by western kingdoms that had never ad any claims to it. Plus, of course, they were set of by a call from the Pope prompted by a letter form the Byzantine Emperor, who wanted help to fight the Turks that were now only 30 somehting miles from Constantinople. The rulers of Jerusalem were actually the Egytians, not the Seljuks ruling form Baghdad, and allies of the Byzantines. Most of the lands of Syria and Palestine were populated mainly by Chrstians: it was the westerners and the whole chain of events they created that hastened the end of Chritian majorities in most of these lands, plus they commonly atatcked fellow Eastern Orthodox Christians, something that reached its peak with the sack of Constantinople in the 4th crusade.

	06-07-2003 02:30									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Never mind attacks on Russian forces. Who attacked civilians first? Russki's or Chechens?

way to completely shift the point. You were saying that the chechens are resisting brutal occupation. I've proven this to be wrong, since they were the ones that have started the conflict, while being virtually indpendent.

quote: That isn't important question though... the important one is, who is going to STOP first?

good question. If I knew the answer, I'd be making big bucks at strategy consulting bussinesses, and not here.

quote: Politically, no it wouldn't. Nothing like a war of occupation to keep poeple diverted from the troubles at home.

You're kidding, right? The Russian government tries to shift the focus from the war in chechniya, playing "bussiness as usual".

quote: How much does anyone know, with a lack of reporting on the ground. Which begs the question... what are the Russki's afraid of any sort of information leakage? Perhaps they have a guilty conscience?

Wait a second. If this war isn't televised, and reported, how is it used to keep people diverted from the troubles at home?

	06-07-2003 02:40									#87
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quote: There were attacks on Russian forces in dagestan, after Russia has pulled out from Chechniya in the mid 90s.

You realize that Dagestan has their OWN independance movement. Can you prove that these attackers were Chechniyan? And it is telling that you said these attacks were on Russian FORCES. Does that mean the Russian army can now kill civilians at will?

Bull. The problem in Chechniya is Russia's fault. The Chechens are responding to brutal occupation, just as the Palestinians responded to Israeli occupation.

	06-07-2003 02:42									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel way to completely shift the point. You were saying that the chechens are resisting brutal occupation. I've proven this to be wrong, since they were the ones that have started the conflict, while being virtually indpendent.

Azazel, Chechen separatists have been locked up for their beliefs since before Stalin got into the Kremlin. When they finally get independance and a legal govt, they get invaded AGAIN - you would think Russia would know when it's not welcome. Oh no, they have to prove military supremacy, butcher the population... and then they expect sympathy for retaliation?

THESE ATTACKS WERE NOT UNPROVOKED. UNDERSTAND?

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Wait a second. If this war isn't televised, and reported, how is it used to keep people diverted from the troubles at home?

How is it reported in the West compared to Russia? How many western journalists are given access to Chechnya? And how often do Checen seperatists get air time?

I'm no sucker saying "oh yes, all ragheads are terrorists". Unlike some on this site.

	06-07-2003 02:46									#89
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Please, let's leave the Palestinian issue out of this. One issue at a time.

quote: You realize that Dagestan has their OWN independance movement. Can you prove that these attackers were Chechniyan? And it is telling that you said these attacks were on Russian FORCES. Does that mean the Russian army can now kill civilians at will?

a) Chechens didn't just attack forces. They've also taken plenty of civilian hostages during the years, that have served them as slaves.
b) The Dagestan and the Chechen movement are the same movement, basically.

quote: Bull. The problem in Chechniya is Russia's fault. The Chechens are responding to brutal occupation, just as the Palestinians responded to Israeli occupation.

Bull. Russians were out of there, and it were the chechen islamists that tried to bite off more than they could chew.

	06-07-2003 02:51									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Azazel, Chechen separatists have been locked up for their beliefs since before Stalin got into the Kremlin. When they finally get independance and a legal govt, they get invaded AGAIN - you would think Russia would know when it's not welcome. Oh no, they have to prove military supremacy, butcher the population... and then they expect sympathy for retaliation?

They were invaded, after they attacked.

quote: THESE ATTACKS WERE NOT UNPROVOKED. UNDERSTAND?

I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH KILLING CIVILIANS. at least with one side, you surely have no problems.

quote: How is it reported in the West compared to Russia? How many western journalists are given access to Chechnya? And how often do Checen seperatists get air time?

Chechen separatists are not given air time. Well, not in interviews. More like Osama's tapes. Western Journalists are in chechniya. Remember that Brit Journalist that was murdered by the chechens? he was there, wasn't he?

quote: I'm no sucker saying "oh yes, all ragheads are terrorists". Unlike some on this site.

"ragheads". Yep, I think you just called me a racist. How original.