06-07-2003 02:56									#91
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quote: They were invaded, after they attacked.

Yes, yes... but the Russians went after civilians first. Right? Shouldn't a modern civilized country whose forces have been attacked try to minimize civilian casulties and not just go after them indiscriminantly?

quote: I think you just called me a racist.

Well you are .

	06-07-2003 02:58									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel "ragheads". Yep, I think you just called me a racist. How original.

Well yeah. Considering that I beat him to the punch by a few pages.

	06-07-2003 03:00									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: They were invaded, after they attacked. Yes, yes... but the Russians went after civilians first. Right?

No.

quote: Shouldn't a modern civilized country whose forces have been attacked try to minimize civilian casulties and not just go after them indiscriminantly?

Now we come to the "modern civilized country" part. I, personally, think that everyone should be held to the same standards. Unless, you're interested in penalizing entities for being modern and civilized. We want the victory of the modern and the civilized, that's why penalizing it is lunacy.

quote: quote: I think you just called me a racist. Well you are .

	06-07-2003 03:02									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel They were invaded, after they attacked.

And has that invasion stopped the violence? No.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH KILLING CIVILIANS. at least with one side, you surely have no problems.

Then so that you understand... I condemn all unprovoked attacks on noncombatants.

They only lead to more bloodshed. Shame on you Russia.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Chechen separatists are not given air time. Well, not in interviews. More like Osama's tapes. Western Journalists are in chechniya. Remember that Brit Journalist that was murdered by the chechens? he was there, wasn't he?

Let's not forget the 3 Brit telecom engineers who were kidnapped and beheaded. As for a Brit war correspondant being killed - not the first, won't be the last. However, there is a big difference between having a couple of jounos on the ground and how it gets reported.

EDITOR: So, what's happening?
WARCO: Shelling, bombing, rape, mutilation of the dead.
EDITOR: No news there then.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel "ragheads". Yep, I think you just called me a racist. How original.

Again for the record, let me state I did not aim that remark at you. It was aimed to challenge those with such a belief.

If I had been accusing you Azazel, I woud have said so.

	06-07-2003 03:03									#95
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quote: personally, think that everyone should be held to the same standards.

I don't. It's idiocy to hold a third world shithole to the same standards as a modern democracy. The modern democracy is supposed to be more advanced. That's one of the tradeoffs you make... you be an advanced country, you lose the right to be a barbarian bastard.

	06-07-2003 03:06									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy And has that invasion stopped the violence? No.

Any alternative ideas? Peace conference perhaps, to selebrate the invasion?

quote: Then so that you understand... I condemn all unprovoked attacks on noncombatants. They only lead to more bloodshed. Shame on you Russia.

quote: Let's not forget the 3 Brit telecom engineers who were kidnapped and beheaded. As for a Brit war correspondant being killed - not the first, won't be the last. However, there is a big difference between having a couple of jounos on the ground and how it gets reported. EDITOR: So, what's happening? WARCO: Shelling, bombing, rape, mutilation of the dead. EDITOR: No news there then.

You started whining about the Russians having something to hide, since they apparently don't let any reporters in. I've said that they do, and now you have trouble with the way it gets reported in "the west"?

quote: Again for the record, let me state I did not aim that remark at you. It was aimed to challenge those with such a belief. If I had been accusing you Azazel, I woud have said so.

Thank you.

	06-07-2003 03:10									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: personally, think that everyone should be held to the same standards. I don't. It's idiocy to hold a third world shithole to the same standards as a modern democracy. The modern democracy is supposed to be more advanced. That's one of the tradeoffs you make... you be an advanced country, you lose the right to be a barbarian bastard.

Tradeoffs? against who exactly are we trading?

This is silly.

	06-07-2003 03:17									#98
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quote: Tradeoffs? against who exactly are we trading?

The world. You make the jump, your scrutiny is increased in the world's eye. I mean really does anyone give a **** about the Tamil Tigers blowing up crap in India and Sri Lanka? NO! Because both countries haven't really made the jump. How can we hold them to the high standard of the West, when they haven't approached the civilization and prosperity of the West?

	06-07-2003 03:20									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Tradeoffs? against who exactly are we trading? The world. You make the jump, your scrutiny is increased in the world's eye. I mean really does anyone give a **** about the Tamil Tigers blowing up crap in India and Sri Lanka? NO! Because both countries haven't really made the jump. How can we hold them to the high standard of the West, when they haven't approached the civilization and prosperity of the West?

I have no doubts that this is the way it works due to various reason such as the "the underdog is right" complex, the "noble savage" complex, and various other misconceptions. I thought we talked about the way it should be, not what way things are?

	06-07-2003 03:29									#100
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quote: I thought we talked about the way it should be, not what way things are?

The way it should be? It's not feasible that the way it is will change to the way you think it should be. It'll never happen. So should's mean nothing if not grounded in some reality.

And if we are talking about the way it should be, then I still have no complaints. I don't mind when the bully gets beaten up.

	06-07-2003 03:33									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I thought we talked about the way it should be, not what way things are? The way it should be? It's not feasible that the way it is will change to the way you think it should be. It'll never happen. So should's mean nothing if not grounded in some reality.

Then I guess we're not debating about the same thing. I am saying that the public is stupid in that, and guided by emotions, and not reasonable thoughts, You're saying "So what are you going to do about it?"

quote: And if we are talking about the way it should be, then I still have no complaints. I don't mind when the bully gets beaten up.

You're one of the annoying bastards who was for Jerry as a kid, aren't you?

	06-07-2003 03:37									#102
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Which country's standard should we hold the world to - the one holding "illegal combatants" at Guantanamo Bay for the last 1½ years? ... or the one occupying Iraq?

Maybe the US foreign policy of the Cold War was correct - maintain a balance of terror. I suggest we give all countries, including Palestine & Chechnya WMD. Then their leaders can concentrate on obliterating opposing armies & governments. Then regular civilians won't have to blow themselves (& other civilians) up !

I bet if you offered the Palestinian leadership enough attack helicopters to take out the Israeli tanks (and possibly the Israeli cabinet if necissary), they would make a real attempt to keep civilian casualties to a minimum.

	06-07-2003 05:14									#103
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You assume then that terrorism is only the result of a lack of force and not of 'barbarism'.

I think such an assumption is wrong.

I think that barbarism is sadly a part of some people who come to power, and is a part of some cultures, and is usually encouraged by religious strifes.

I think that given Helicopters, the chechens and palestinains, would do their best to kill as much Israeli population as possible, and commit absolute genocide.

	06-07-2003 05:20									#104
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quote: You assume then that terrorism is only the result of a lack of force and not of 'barbarism'.

Yes, that is 100% correct. Terrorism is only used by those that cannot fight a war in conventional ways.

	06-07-2003 06:07									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov You assume then that terrorism is only the result of a lack of force and not of 'barbarism'. I think such an assumption is wrong. I think that barbarism is sadly a part of some people who come to power, and is a part of some cultures, and is usually encouraged by religious strifes. I think that given Helicopters, the chechens and palestinains, would do their best to kill as much Israeli population as possible, and commit absolute genocide.

Perhaps, probalby not, just as many Israelis would not mind the utter destruction of the Plaestinians in the occupied territories, though the majority not.

	06-07-2003 06:50									#106
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Attack helicopters have a fairly limited range unless you're equipped for inflight refeuling, so I don't think that the Chechens would attack very many Israelis.

	06-07-2003 08:41									#107
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it's nice to see that it's also equal-opportunity, this career choice.

	06-07-2003 13:40									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You assume then that terrorism is only the result of a lack of force and not of 'barbarism'. Yes, that is 100% correct. Terrorism is only used by those that cannot fight a war in conventional ways.

I think we were discussing the targetting of civilians, not terrorist tactics. You're shifting the focus again.

	06-07-2003 15:28									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Attack helicopters have a fairly limited range unless you're equipped for inflight refeuling, so I don't think that the Chechens would attack very many Israelis.

hi ,

they dont even have them , the chechens that is , ......

most have a range of about 400 klicks with internal fuel , 1750 with external , so no , we dont have to worry , ......

have a nice day

	06-07-2003 16:49									#110
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quote: Yes, that is 100% correct. Terrorism is only used by those that cannot fight a war in conventional ways.

That is an incorrect equation between methods and targets.

Unconventional tactics (aka Guerilla tactics) are used by a militant group against an overwhelmingingly strong enemy.

However, when the efforts are pointed directly at the civilians, it is when guerilla actions are called terror.

You are either confused, or intentionally trying to hide the difference to try and give terrorism the legitimacy that guerilla has.

Guerilla tactics = tactics of the weaker = acceptable.

Targetting civilians using guerilla tactics = terrorist tactics = tactics of the heinous = not acceptable.

It's as simple as that.

	06-07-2003 17:02									#111
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I've said that already, Siro. I gues the fallacy was so obvious in his post, That it just screams for someone to reply to it.

	06-07-2003 17:05									#112
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I knew something like this would happen.

(from the BBC article quoted before)

quote: Terror fears

Shouldn't that be activist fears or militant fears?

BTW, the Tamil Tigers are a Muslim group.

quote: Just as the Palestinians responded to Israeli occupation.

Rubbish. Utter, complete, crap. If it was about occupation, there would be no suicide bombings or terror attacks. It is crap firstly because Arab countries/the PA treats its people worse than Israel ever has, and it is crap secondly because when Arab leaders speak of 'protesting the occupation' it refers to not to Gaza and the West Bank but Israel itself.
It is about a whole society indoctrinated to hate and neglected by dictators who wish to hold onto power [nothing unites like a people with a common enemy).
I can't say this is true for chechnya-I don't know too much about it. About Israel, however, and the Palestinians, it is true.

EDIT: Whoever said that Israelis hate Arabs is also saying rubbish. Israelis have their own dimwitted racists just like everyone else-but 99% of Israelis aren't.

	06-07-2003 18:04									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico the Tamil Tigers are a Muslim group.

No they're not. Sure there are Muslim Tamils even if most are Hindu, but the Muslims are (mostly) opposed to the nationalism of the LTTE (Tigers).

	06-07-2003 21:06									#114
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My mistake . I'm sure I saw something about that somewhere...oh well.

	06-07-2003 21:29									#115
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I have yet to see a Catholic suicide bomber. I hear about Muslim fanatics blowing themselves up nearly daily.

	06-07-2003 22:42									#116
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quote: You are either confused, or intentionally trying to hide the difference to try and give terrorism the legitimacy that guerilla has.

It does. We just have this stupid aversion to civilian casulties when we'd do it ourselves in a long and bloody war (see WW2).

	07-07-2003 00:21									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I have yet to see a Catholic suicide bomber. I hear about Muslim fanatics blowing themselves up nearly daily.

hi ,

or a Jewish one , .....

have a nice day

	07-07-2003 00:23									#118
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Guerilla on itself carries no legitimacy. It's judged as any other war.