06-07-2003 16:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor He sure exaggerates like hell,

Cheese eating wine drinking surrendering FROGMONKEY!!!

Invade France now!!!!

	06-07-2003 16:54									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I mostly agree with Tassadar. He sure exaggerates like hell, but he illustates quite well what I wanted to say. The "AMERICA ROXORZ EVERYONES SUXORZ" attitutde is my first and foremost problem with the Americans. It was mostly something to laugh about in the past. Since Sept 11, it has become sickening and worrysome.

wow. This is such an ignorant statement. Americans surely are proud of their country, and they do think it's the strongest in the world, but I wouldn't call it false pride. Americans are intelligent about it, and know their weaknesses, and strengths.

Americans are NOT stupid. Americans know when their country does stupid things. Just look at a person such as MtG. you'd hardly see ANYONE call him a pinko liberal or whatever. These are the people who are the majority in the USA.

Just look at the comedy shows in the USA. The Daily Show is a great example of a show very critical of US govt. policy, and it's very popular.

People just don't know it. They moan about the USA not aware of what's going on around the world, when they have no idea about what goes on inside the USA.

	06-07-2003 16:57									#33
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quote: These are the people who are the majority in the USA.

Yeah. We all know the hijackers were all Iraqi.....Americans are intelligent, it's the rest of the world that needs to catch up

We know Saddam was behind the 9-11 attacks....Whos this "Been Laiden" guy people keep talking about?

No ones more socially progressive than us....I mean, 51+ percent of us want to limit free speech cause the government says it'll be helpful in the war on terrorism (Yet another thing America and Israel have in common)

	06-07-2003 17:03									#34
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America has many great aspects, most of which tend to go by unnoticed. Low cost of food, high standard of living, a wealth of opportunities, a positive can-do attitude. All in all a great place to be.

America has many contentious qualities, which get a lot of media coverage because of internal divisions. These include personal freedoms in the wake of terrorism, gun control issues, christian religious nuts, social services reforms etc.



The issue that causes most people to like or dislike America in my opinion is the current US President and his outlook and attitude to the world. I don't think its a stretch to say that the US is popular when the man in the White House has a good global rep (regardless of his domestic rep). Everything else is almost a side issue that people will gloss over if they like the Pres.

There is also the issue of Americanisation, but thats just a cultural issue, its not about liking or disliking the American people.

	06-07-2003 17:05									#35
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A very correct post, Big Crunch.

	06-07-2003 17:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel A very correct post, Big Crunch.

What about mine? Is it correct?

	06-07-2003 17:12									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel wow. This is such an ignorant statement. Americans surely are proud of their country, and they do think it's the strongest in the world, but I wouldn't call it false pride. Americans are intelligent about it, and know their weaknesses, and strengths.

No doubt, Americans can be proud of their country. But I think their patriotism is the field where they are losing their intelligence. At least, according to what I gather almost only here.

quote: Americans are NOT stupid. Americans know when their country does stupid things. Just look at a person such as MtG.

MtG is one of the few non-leftist Americans here to have ridiculed the assertion "they hate us because of our freedom", indeed. I'd love to see more conservatives / regular Americans do so.

quote: These are the people who are the majority in the USA.

I strongly doubt it, but neither of us can prove the point.

quote: Just look at the comedy shows in the USA. The Daily Show is a great example of a show very critical of US govt. policy, and it's very popular.

I am not saying there is no criticism towards the government (heck, I see loads of it every day here). However, I am saying that the criticism towards the fundamental belief the US is absolutely better (not only powerful) than the rest is very low.

There was a great poll recently, showing that 96% of Americans believed foreign people wanted to come in the US and live. 4 out of 5 respondents in the other country said they wouldn't want to live in the US if given the chance. That's an example of disproportionate an unrealistic pride.

	06-07-2003 17:27									#38
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Americans like war far too much. Although, given their history, it's not unjustified.

	06-07-2003 17:27									#39
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Just a bunch of pinche gringos who can't drive.

	06-07-2003 17:44									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: Originally posted by Azazel wow. This is such an ignorant statement. Americans surely are proud of their country, and they do think it's the strongest in the world, but I wouldn't call it false pride. Americans are intelligent about it, and know their weaknesses, and strengths. No doubt, Americans can be proud of their country. But I think their patriotism is the field where they are losing their intelligence. At least, according to what I gather almost only here.

What do you mean by that?

quote: quote: Americans are NOT stupid. Americans know when their country does stupid things. Just look at a person such as MtG. MtG is one of the few non-leftist Americans here to have ridiculed the assertion "they hate us because of our freedom", indeed. I'd love to see more conservatives / regular Americans do so.

Personally I think that to a certain degree, this is true. The Islamists hate the modern culture for it's freedom. I see nothing stupid in that.

quote: quote: Just look at the comedy shows in the USA. The Daily Show is a great example of a show very critical of US govt. policy, and it's very popular. I am not saying there is no criticism towards the government (heck, I see loads of it every day here). However, I am saying that the criticism towards the fundamental belief the US is absolutely better (not only powerful) than the rest is very low.

That's what they believe in. I don't think that this is correct, but how much criticism do we hear of other societies who think the same way?

quote: There was a great poll recently, showing that 96% of Americans believed foreign people wanted to come in the US and live. 4 out of 5 respondents in the other country said they wouldn't want to live in the US if given the chance. That's an example of disproportionate an unrealistic pride.

That poll was wrong, since the majority of the polled people were from the first world, and the americans obviously thought about people from the 3rd world.

	06-07-2003 17:55									#41
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quote: What do you mean by that?

I mean the Yanks have good reasons to feel rpoud of there country, it has indeed done great things. Howveer, when it comes to patriotism, Americans seem to lose their sense quite a bit.

quote: Personally I think that to a certain degree, this is true. The Islamists hate the modern culture for it's freedom. I see nothing stupid in that.

The Islamists singled the US and Israel out for political reasons. Much the same way that Algeria's Islamists singled France out when they stiked outside of Algeria.
It is true the Islamists hate the western "decadent values". Now, between this belief and Sept. 11 planes, there is a huge leap. The Islamists couldn't have made it without the support they got from normal Arabs heting the US for something else than the freedoms the average American enjoy. If you ask to a non-American what first comes to mind associated with "America", the word "freedom" is extremely unlikely, even more so in Arabic countries. Fact is, the liberties American boast so much are nearly ignored out of the US, except by those who seek to live in the US.

quote: That's what they believe in. I don't think that this is correct, but how much criticism do we hear of other societies who think the same way?

None, which is sad. Given its status as hyperpower, the US has more spotlight, as well as the American population. But when China will become powerful, Chinese ubernationalism will piss off people as much as America's today.

quote: That poll was wrong, since the majority of the polled people were from the first world, and the americans obviously thought about people from the 3rd world.

From what I read, it seems many Americans believe that "all students want to study in the US". I would be surprised if this reasoning isn't extended to non-student people from the first world as well. After all, according to the poll, 89% of Americans believe that America is the best country in the world in which to live. That would only be consistent.

	06-07-2003 18:03									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: What do you mean by that? I mean the Yanks have good reasons to feel rpoud of there country, it has indeed done great things. Howveer, when it comes to patriotism, Americans seem to lose their sense quite a bit.

Again, far from being an american-only trait. Happens all over the world, and I don't think that Americans should be criticized more for being uberpatriotic, because they're more successful (I.e. have more reasons to be uberpatriotic!). That's not rational.

quote: quote: Personally I think that to a certain degree, this is true. The Islamists hate the modern culture for it's freedom. I see nothing stupid in that. The Islamists singled the US and Israel out for political reasons. Much the same way that Algeria's Islamists singled France out when they stiked outside of Algeria. It is true the Islamists hate the western "decadent values". Now, between this belief and Sept. 11 planes, there is a huge leap. The Islamists couldn't have made it without the support they got from normal Arabs heting the US for something else than the freedoms the average American enjoy. If you ask to a non-American what first comes to mind associated with "America", the word "freedom" is extremely unlikely, even more so in Arabic countries. Fact is, the liberties American boast so much are nearly ignored out of the US, except by those who seek to live in the US.

Thing is, "normal" arabs, aren't exactly "normal" by our standards, as well. Just look at the arab society in your on country, damnit.

quote: quote: That's what they believe in. I don't think that this is correct, but how much criticism do we hear of other societies who think the same way? None, which is sad. Given its status as hyperpower, the US has more spotlight, as well as the American population. But when China will become powerful, Chinese ubernationalism will piss off people as much as America's today.

That's why I think it's stupid and hypocritical to criticize the US all the time, while not speaking about others.

quote: quote: That poll was wrong, since the majority of the polled people were from the first world, and the americans obviously thought about people from the 3rd world. From what I read, it seems many Americans believe that "all students want to study in the US". I would be surprised if this reasoning isn't extended to non-student people from the first world as well. After all, according to the poll, 89% of Americans believe that America is the best country in the world in which to live. That would only be consistent.

Many people believe that their country is the best in the world. I am sure that most French people think so. Many americans disagree with that. Does that mean that the French are arrogant, over patriotic loons?

	06-07-2003 18:11									#43
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Overall, I've a positive opinion of the United States. Most of the Americans I've met are good people that are easy to get along with. A large amount of them aren't Dubya fans either, which is something we have in common. The current administration hasn't exactly won a place in my heart, but at least it won't be there forever.

Don't get me wrong, I disagree with a lot of things that the United States has done; it has committed a lot of unsavoury (and some downright evil) acts in its past, but in my opinion it has been a much more positive force in world affairs than a negative one. If it weren't for the Americans I'd probably be singing "Deutschland Uber Alles" or extolling the virtues of a classless society thanks to our great Soviet liberators. The United States acts to serve its own interests first and foremost (I'm afraid I don't swallow Bush's altruistic line) - luckily for both the US and the EU our interests coincide most of the time.

An interesting aside; a lot of the Irish students you see protesting against the United States will be the first ones in line to get their J-1 visas to go over to work there in the Summer. Anti-Americanism, in a lot of cases in Ireland, is only skin deep. I'd personally love to go and spend a year in the States, either working or studying.

As for the Americanization of society; I'm not thrilled by it; we should try and preserve our own cultural identity in Ireland and the rest of Europe. But I'd take the Americanization of society over the Islamification of society any day.

	06-07-2003 18:17									#44
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It would indeed be pretty arrogant to think France is the best country in the world. It is quite a good country whose values are mostly good (though tainted), and whose quality of life is pretty high too. But to think that we are more free than the Dutch, more well-off than the Swiss, more cultured than the Italians etc. in a whole sure makes arrogant.

It would be even more arrogant to expect foreign people to feel France is the greatest country in the world. I have yet to meet someone who does so.

	06-07-2003 18:19									#45
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You're kidding, Right? So, French people don't think that France is the best country to live in the world?

	06-07-2003 18:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You're kidding, Right? So, French people don't think that France is the best country to live in the world?

Many do. But I sure think it is an arrogant posture.
But I have yet to meet one Frenchman who actually expects foreign people to acknowledge France superiority. That would be a supra-arrogant attitude.

	06-07-2003 18:25									#47
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So French people don't think that people want to immigrate to their country? even people from the 3rd world?

	06-07-2003 18:28									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So French people don't think that people want to immigrate to their country? even people from the 3rd world?

Of course they do. We have enough immigrants to know. However, we're not gung-ho about saying "See ? We have immigrants ! We are obviously the best country in the world !".

Besides, the belief that France is the best country in the world is discreet. Nothing like the loud chest-thumping and boasting that I have seen here from our American posters.

	06-07-2003 18:31									#49
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Oh what's the difference? Americans polled didn't go all gung-ho about it! They just answered the question! and they said the true.

The "discreet" thing is pure bullshit. So, people are not chestthumping *******s, but just smug bastards. How is it better?

	06-07-2003 18:52									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The "discreet" thing is pure bullshit. So, people are not chestthumping *******s, but just smug bastards. How is it better?

The belief is much less influential in one's spirit, when it's not repeated all day. Besides, it helps making it less spread in general.

This is the only poll I found on the topic, and it's not perfect. The question is: "Among the EU countries, which one looks ... ?", and categories are, in order:
Best governed; Easiest to find work; Best healed; Best retirement conditions; best economic management; Best daily life (I think it's the most important question for what interests us).
It shows the 89% belief that one's country is the best is not universally shared, even in a country rumored for its arrogance like France. The only outstandingly acknowledged superiority by the respondents is the field of welfare, which has always been a serious concern here.

	06-07-2003 18:54									#51
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There is one thing that I don't really care for, and that is when people blame victims. 9-11 was not our fault. I think that some people say it is just because it fits into their worldview, but that's just wrong.

	06-07-2003 18:57									#52
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You don't have to repeat it all day to believe it. If you believe it, you believe it. And since it's spreads throughout family and friends, it's not important, anyway.

	06-07-2003 18:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You don't have to repeat it all day to believe it. If you believe it, you believe it. And since it's spreads throughout family and friends, it's not important, anyway.

You have to repeat it all day to act according to it (which is what the US administration is still doing, with a wide support from the population). And you also have to repeat it all day to piss foreigners to no end with it.

	06-07-2003 19:28									#54
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Yes, because people come across foreigners all the time.

	06-07-2003 19:33									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Yes, because people come across foreigners all the time.

Strawman

	06-07-2003 19:36									#56
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don't dodge the argument.

What I meant is that you've said that people repeat it all day long. which is bullshit. The internet is rather unique in that way.

	06-07-2003 19:43									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel people repeat it all day long. which is bullshit. The internet is rather unique in that way.

That may be true. I have no way to confirm, since the only American I know IRL doesn't talk about it (of course, the fact that he shared a flat with an Iraqi made politics quite a taboo )
However, from the very limited input I have, it seems the Chinese don't hesitate to be uber nationalist IRL too, repeating at whatever excuse that China is the best country in the world. At least, Chinese who live abroad.

	06-07-2003 19:53									#58
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Just look at UR.

	06-07-2003 20:04									#59
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America? It's not much, but it's home.

	06-07-2003 21:01									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Americans are NOT stupid. Americans know when their country does stupid things. Just look at a person such as MtG. you'd hardly see ANYONE call him a pinko liberal or whatever. These are the people who are the majority in the USA.

You can't be serious.