07-07-2003 05:08									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman and i must say, the "God bless america" crap really gets on my nerves too, as it does on most Americans who are not conservative christian. Even if i wern't agnostic/atheist, why would god show the US special favor? [/threadjack]

God was quite clearly English in the 19th century, but it is also obvious that he must have emigrated to the US at some point in the early 20th.

	07-07-2003 11:01									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Re American Pride This, I think, is one of my problems with understanding international loathing of the US. I dont understand why they would dislike us because we are loud and proud of being americans.

I have to let Tocqueville do the explaining:

quote: All free nations are vainglorious, but national pride is not displayed by all in the same manner. The Americans, in their intercourse with strangers, appear impatient of the smallest censure and insatiable of praise. The most slender eulogy is acceptable to them, the most exalted seldom contents them; they unceasingly harass you to extort praise, and if you resist their entreaties, they fall to praising themselves. It would seem as if, doubting their own merit, they wished to have it constantly exhibited before their eyes. Their vanity is not only greedy, but restless and jealous; it will grant nothing, while it demands everything, but is ready to beg and to quarrel at the same time. If I say to an American that the country he lives in is a fine one, "Ay," he replies, "there is not its equal in the world." If I applaud the freedom that its inhabitants enjoy, he answers: "Freedom is a fine thing, but few nations are worthy to enjoy it."… At length I leave him to the contemplation of himself; but he returns to the charge and does not desist till he has got me to repeat all I had just been saying. It is impossible to conceive a more troublesome or more garrulous patriotism; it wearies even those who are disposed to respect it.

"And when it is (like, 'we are the best and everything we do is right', which is very rare and only said by an uberingnorant/patriotic minority), why would foreigners bother themselves to care?"

Rare? You semm to have an entire industry dedicated to the "we're the best in the world" slogan.

	07-07-2003 11:35									#123
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Azazel: You've had it in for me since that utilitarianism thread! What gives?

You hold one of the positions I dislike the most in modern thinking. These are:
-Libertarianism.
-Moral Relativism.
-Multiculturalism in the moral relativist context (i.e. I have no problem with people being different in tastes or preferences, But I don't think that people should be organized according to that, or destroy a basic fabric of relationships in a modern, advanced human society because of it.)

quote: Just because I happen to recognise the fallacy of considering ones own culture better than another, doesn't mean that I'm a fan of Sharia law, public beatings, or bhurkas.

Why not? If you say they're morally equivalent, what makes you choose one sort of life over the other? personal taste?

	07-07-2003 12:09									#124
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Tocqueville -

quote: Their vanity is not only greedy, but restless and jealous; it will grant nothing, while it demands everything, but is ready to beg and to quarrel at the same time. If I say to an American that the country he lives in is a fine one, "Ay," he replies, "there is not its equal in the world." If I applaud the freedom that its inhabitants enjoy, he answers: "Freedom is a fine thing, but few nations are worthy to enjoy it."… At length I leave him to the contemplation of himself; but he returns to the charge and does not desist till he has got me to repeat all I had just been saying.

I think most anyone who knows americans in this day and age would have to disagree with Tocqueville's observations.

Americans do demand a lot, but they are also charitable...
Also, very, very few americans would ever say anything remotely like this,
"Freedom is a fine thing, but few nations are worthy to enjoy it."…
on contrare, Americans have a problem with WANTING to share it

I like Pekka's, Azazel's, and even Spiff's analysis better (as in i htink they are more accurate)

	07-07-2003 12:16									#125
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"Americans have a problem with WANTING to share it"

Ask people in latin america about that.

Apart from that, Tocqueville's observation is still correct. Your loud nationalism is highly annoying. That you don't percieve it that way doesn't change the perception for non-americans.

	07-07-2003 12:18									#126
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"Americans do demand a lot, but they are also charitable... "

I think you misunderstood the issue. It's very difficult to find Americans praising other countries, unless they play an american poodle.

	07-07-2003 12:40									#127
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Right on, Hersh. Most Americans I've met didn't even bother to be interested in things they could respect about my country.

OTOH, they craved for praise on their most recent purchase of a pickup truck.

	07-07-2003 13:47									#128
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I think it's a big country

	09-07-2003 18:40									#129
	Re: What is your opinion of the United States? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kramerman But this seems to simple... this doesnt seem to explain why so many people's opinion of the US has seemed to plummit over the years. Or is this all just my imagination? fed by shows like the one i saw?

The reason so few people like America is because their arrogant government thinks the rest of the world is their servant. They act like they are the only country that matters and they don't follow the standards they set of other countries (e.g. They say Iraq had WoMDs so they can attack even though America has WoMDs) etc.

	09-07-2003 19:49									#130
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quote: God was quite clearly English in the 19th century, but it is also obvious that he must have emigrated to the US at some point in the early 20th.

Krammerman - I too am sick of "God Bless America." I've never liked it, but it's everywhere now, and it turns my stomach. Luckily, I have a remote control.

-Arrian

	09-07-2003 19:53									#131
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quote: I think you misunderstood the issue. It's very difficult to find Americans praising other countries, unless they play an american poodle.

actually, it's difficult to find Americans praising other countries, even if they do play an American poodle: vanatu, for instance. or skorea in the past. or pakistan. or turkey in the past.

	09-07-2003 20:04									#132
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But this seems to simple... this doesnt seem to explain why so many people's opinion of the US has seemed to plummit over the years. Or is this all just my imagination? fed by shows like the one i saw?

It has a lot to do with American propensity to air our dirty laundry for the world to see, and also an pathological focus on everything US by non-Americans.

	09-07-2003 20:06									#134
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actually, it's difficult to find Americans praising other countries, even if they do play an American poodle: vanatu, for instance. or skorea in the past. or pakistan. or turkey in the past.

You forget to mention that it's difficult to find Americans criticizing other countries as well.

	09-07-2003 20:07									#135
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You forget to mention that it's difficult to find Americans criticizing other countries as well.

A Frenchman wouldn't buy this statement.

	09-07-2003 20:08									#136
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That doesn't count.

-Arrian

	09-07-2003 20:08									#137
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The exception proves the rule in this case.

	09-07-2003 20:08									#138
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True, but the French are in a special category....they give at least as good as they get....

-=Vel=-

	09-07-2003 20:10									#139
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Talk about your rapid responses!

-=Vel=-

	09-07-2003 20:12									#140
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Yeah, we were ON that one.

-Arrian

	09-07-2003 20:14									#141
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Amazing...

Well, I know, that the French share this point of view, at least since the day when I tried to communicate in English in a hotel in Paris.

	09-07-2003 20:15									#142
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Oh.....we and the French have a love-hate relationship. They pretend they hate us, and we think they're cute when they act mad....

-=Vel=-

	09-07-2003 20:18									#143
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Well, I know, that the French share this point of view, at least since the day when I tried to communicate in English in a hotel in Paris.

And they wonder why US tourism is down to France.

	09-07-2003 20:20									#144
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And they wonder why US tourism is down to France.

I wonder why they thought Woody Allen would things?

	09-07-2003 20:20									#145
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I'd bet French toursim is down to the US too, Dan.

Can't prove it, though.

-Arrian

	09-07-2003 20:24									#146
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Why doesn't an American start a "Do You, As An American Citizen, Really Give A Damn What The Rest Of The World Thinks?" poll.

	09-07-2003 20:27									#147
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You forget to mention that it's difficult to find Americans criticizing other countries as well.

It's incredibly easy to find one among Americans abroad.

	09-07-2003 20:28									#148
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, I know, that the French share this point of view, at least since the day when I tried to communicate in English in a hotel in Paris. And they wonder why US tourism is down to France.

You encounter amazing things when you are in a foreign land and try to talk in a seemingly common, but unliked language. The same happened to me, when I tried to communicate in Russian in a grocery store in Estonia. They simply claimed not to understand me, although my Russian is fairly good. It took me to say the word "Scheiße!" in German (would be censored here ), and they realized, that I'm not a Russian and served me, btw in perfect Russian.

	09-07-2003 20:33									#149
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Now Hersh....why would Americans be abroad. We know nobody likes us anyway....

Sir Ralph....that's a good story....very illustrative of the point (not to mention, how ironic! After discovering that you weren't Russian after all, THEN they break out the Russian language....)

-=Vel=-

	09-07-2003 20:35									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Now Hersh....why would Americans be abroad. We know nobody likes us anyway....

The bigger mystery is, why do they subject themselves to atrocities like Sound of Music?

I have a suspicion you are using us as some sort of extraterritorial correctional facility...