09-07-2003 09:20									#1
	Consular election discussion Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It seems there is some contention as to how we should elect our Consuls. However, there is none that each and every Consul should face reelection at some point. The issue that has divided is how to run those elections, or more precisely: whether to have 1 Consul at a time stand for reelection, or have all Consuls up for reelection at the same time, with two of them assured of being returned. Both systems assure continuity as there would be Consuls continuing past elections where there may be new Consuls elected.

The other specifics such as length of term can be worked out once we decide the real question. The question is, which do our citizens prefer?

A: Periodically (every month or two) one of the Consular seats will be up for election. The serving Consul may seek to keep the seat by running. All of the candidates are put in a poll. The winner is the Consul for that seat until it is time for that seat to be reelected, at which point the process repeats. On the next election date, the next Consular seat is up for election, and so for the third which is put up for reelection on the following election date. On the next election date, it would be the first Consular seat up for reelection again. As the longest serving Consul, I would face the polls first, should I wish to continue as a Consul.

B: All Consuls would be included in the election poll for every Consular election, together with all other citizens who want to run. These elections would be held periodically (with periods to be defined). The top two vote getters of the current Consuls would be retained. The lowest vote getting Consul would have votes compared to the citizens. The one with the most votes would be elected along with the two returned Consuls.

In either case, elections and periods between elections would be defined later. The thing to do at this point is to see if there is a clear consensus among us of one system or the other. If there is, then we can put all our efforts into perfecting that favoured system.

I would appreciate it if people could kick it around for a bit in this thread and discuss the pros and cons. Get yourselves settled after looking at both sides of the issue. A poll will go up within the next week and that poll will last seven days.

As previously discussed here:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=90270

Polled on here:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=90182

and here:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=89850

	09-07-2003 11:09									#2
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Short and simple:

-1 election a month for one consul.
-Consuls serve a 3 month term
-Can run again and no term limits
-Still subject to a CoC

	09-07-2003 11:38									#3
	Remove this text

I agree with WhiteBandit on this one.

The only exception is that I would still like to see the us keep the challenge rule whereby a challenger may run against a Consul and attempt to knock them off. Has that rule been changed or removed since I left several months ago?

I mean... the way I see it, I like the idea of 3 month terms and only 1 Consul up each month on rotation, but still allow Consuls to be removed from office if someone can get enough people to vote for it (thus keeping the Consuls accountable).

That's a variation on the original system only in that it FORCES the Consuls to go up for election at least once every 3 months, but retains the old system's quality of allowing us to remove them at any time.

Just my 2 -insert your lowest demonination of currency here-

	09-07-2003 11:43									#4
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yup, that is what I meant by keeping the "CoC" thing in effect. CoC = Change of Command, meaning anyone can challenge an incumbant consul at anytime.

	09-07-2003 11:49									#5
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Yes. This doesn't deal with changing anything except that Consuls should face regular elections.

Some of the earlier efforts have fallen foul of too much up for change at once. We need this step. Other changes can be considered in turn.

	09-07-2003 12:22									#6
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I like option A at 2 month intervals.

	09-07-2003 12:52									#7
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Option A, 1 mth interval.

	09-07-2003 13:38									#8
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Short and simple: -1 election a month for one consul. -Consuls serve a 3 month term -Can run again and no term limits -Still subject to a CoC

+1

	09-07-2003 14:58									#9
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Option B, 1.5 months.

	09-07-2003 15:02									#10
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But, why? We need to come to a consensus. That is done after a discussion. People come around to the ideas that make more sense. Right?

Otherwise, we could just poll now. That wouldn't be optimal though, would it?

	09-07-2003 17:40									#11
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Why?

Well, first of all, 1 month seems a bit short, and 2 months could be a long time if there's enthousiastic new members waiting to step in.

I choose option B because I think that the people should express their feeling about which consul should leave his office, and not wait until that particular position becomes available.

	09-07-2003 18:07									#12
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither But, why? We need to come to a consensus. That is done after a discussion. People come around to the ideas that make more sense. Right? Otherwise, we could just poll now. That wouldn't be optimal though, would it?

Huh?

We are THE PEOPLE(tm)! We don't need any stinkin' reasons for voting on the basis of our whims!

err...

To be honest, it seems that the reason why many are considering this is that while they are generally quite happy with the Consuls we currently have (minus some exceptions, of course), it both messes with their understanding of democratic norms for "elected" leaders to have infinite terms of office and they believe that regular elections provide a better opporunity for encouraging challenges than the current CoC system (which does discourage challenges from taking place at the same time as providing a completely open time frame in which they may take place).

As for me, I was one of the original proponents of the current system, so I'm relatively happy with it. The challenge system socially discourages challenges because we wanted it to. The idea was that people would only dare to personally challenge a sitting Consul and cause an election if something really pissed them off. Otherwise, we would have continuity, which was seen as extremely important for a multiplayer DG involving multiple websites.

That said, I can see the merit in having periodic scheduled elections that because they are already going to happen, can make challenges less personal and thus encourage rather than discourage competition.

The question then is whether we WANT there to be more competition for the role of Consul. For now, since I'm not disagreeable to it and it seems a number of people would like that, I'm all for it.

	09-07-2003 18:37									#13
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1 month isn't too short. That isn't the term limit of the Consul. The consul serves his position for THREE Months. We just do an alternating election every month so a new Consul is up.

Considering the fact that NYE is the only Consul we've had that has lasted longer than 3 months anyway, I think a 3 month term is more than enough time for a person to serve.

	09-07-2003 19:04									#14
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1 month!

6 months for a term is much too long.

	09-07-2003 21:20									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I prefer the "all up for election" format, but I'm not going to fall on my sword over it. If the period election of one Consul at a time is more popular, then let's do it. All I ask is that it be 3 month terms and the CoC remains (which seems to be the consensus so far anyhow).

--Togas

	10-07-2003 00:39									#16
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Panzer! Finally someone agrees with me!

I'll only accept A with 1 month, B is fine with me at any interval.

As I said in the other thread: saying a CoC can always be done earlier is no argument for long terms. CoCs should become measures for EMERGENCIES or other special circumstances, not the usual method of consul replacement.

	10-07-2003 02:41									#17
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+1 A, don't care about the interval.

-1 B, I really don't like the consuls being in competition with each other in some sort of "survivor" like contest to see who gets voted off this month :P (And yes I realize that none of them have to be voted off if no citizen got more votes.....)

	12-07-2003 07:45									#18
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Any other ideas or comments?

	14-07-2003 06:12									#19
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I wrote a diatribe, realised I had misunderstood the options, rewrote it, realised I had nothing new to say and then decided I would at least say this much.

	14-07-2003 12:26									#20
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Well said.