14-07-2003 03:05									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think with the exception of the first few years, when we really didn't know what we were doing, America (colonies, and then nation) has always been an exceptional agricultural producer.

	14-07-2003 04:21									#62
	Remove this text

well with the exception of religious, militartaristic and seafaring a strong case could be made for any of them for the US.

Not that i care...i usually delete the US from even being picked at random in my civ3mod-no US.bic Its slightly more historic that way

	14-07-2003 07:20									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My guess is Agricultural gives cheap granaries, +1 food for "cities", +2 for "Metropolises"

Seafaring might give a ship to start out with, cheap harbors, and maybe +1 move

quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Anyone want to take bets on who's agricultural and who's seafaring? As I still have no clue who's in and who's not, I'd like to suggesting the following revisions... not gonna happen most likely, but who knows? Persia - Agricultural, Religious Reason: birthplace of Mazdaism, one of the first (and still going) monotheistic faiths. Once sustained a MASSIVE population (largest in the world before the Mongol invasion), still substantial today despite the arid landscape.

I know Persia is industrious because they built a large road network under Darius and Xerxes. Not sure why Scientific, though

quote: China - Agricultural, Industrious Reason: I'd love to see Scientific in there too, but only 2 traits per civ.

I like this

quote: Carthage - Seafaring, Commercial Reason: Industrious? This has always bothered me. What did the Carthaginians do that qualifies them to be industrious? Maybe I'm just an ignorant noob.

Nothing better?

I agree with those traits

quote: English - Seafaring, Commercial Reason: The sun never sets on the British empire. Expansionist is appropriate, of course. But I'd love to see those Men O'War be more relevant.

They could possibly be Seafaring, Expansionist (someone has to be it)

quote: Vikings - Seafaring, Militaristic Reason: C'mon!

I would be suprised if it isn't

quote: Korea - Agricultural OR Seafaring, Commercial Reason: Gameplay balance. Why is Korea always so damn strong, in terms of tech, culture and trade? Korea throughout history never had this sort of power... not that I've got anything against Korea per se...

Hmm, Agricultural might be stronger than Scientific, so this might not help

quote: Celts - Expanionist, Militaritic Reason: Ok, I know this seems insane. But I think religious gives these guys too much of an edge. I'm a history nut, and I always get chagrined when the Celts have made it to the modern age, with an impressive empire and gigantic history...

With the Zulu and Mongols, this trait is overdone. The Celt's traits fit them perfectly (even if it makes them powerful)

quote: India - Agricultural, religious Reason: India's current traits are perfectly fine, but I think this might be even better (accuracy wise).

I like this

quote: Ottomans - Militaristic, Commercial Reason: Seems out of left field? Well, I don't know of the Scientific achievements of the Ottomans off-hand, but I do know of their ability to sustain a large, ethnically diverse empire for a long time, and of their impressive military history. Of course, perhaps an even better trait combo would be Militaritic and Industrious, in place of China.

The Ottoman empire preserved the science of the ancient world while Europe was less advanced. I'm sure there is a reason for industrious (I just can't think of it)

quote: I can't think of more I'd like to speculate about. I doubt serious revisions will be made to the game, so perhaps this post is a bit lame. Just thinking out loud.

Greeks might be seafaring (maybe Scientific, Seafaring)
This has mainly to do with Athens (which the Greeks seem to be based on anyway)

Japan might be Religious, Seafaring

These are just thoughts on if I can stick Seafaring anywhere else

It would be nice to get a confirmation on the 7 (or 8) civs that will be in the game so we can figure out the 28 original and 3 or 4 duplicate combos

	14-07-2003 08:35									#64
	Get a bigger avatar today!

what could the trigger be for a golden age for an agricultural civ??

	14-07-2003 08:37									#65
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by pinocchio what could the trigger be for a golden age for an agricultural civ??

hi ,

, a wonder like the pyramids , ......

have a nice day

	14-07-2003 11:21									#66
	Inflate your Upload Space

Don't forget to consider that traits may need to be assign for balance, without regard to any historical reality.
IOW you do not want to wind up with some traits notbeing used or one one civ with it. You also do not want to give proper (if there is such a thing) traits to a civ, but make them unplayable.

	14-07-2003 11:26									#67
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What techs would ags and seas get? pottery for ag and??? alpha for sea? Would expansionists still get pottery then, or would a couple of techs be added in to start?

	14-07-2003 14:21									#68
	Full PM-box? Change here!

With 6 traits you get 5+4+3+2+1 = 15 combinations. That is why civ3 had all the combinations plus religious/militaristic twice but aztecs and japan with different starting techs.

8 traits gives 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 28 combinations so with 31 civs we can probably expect to see all the possible combinations plus 3 duplicates.

	14-07-2003 14:56									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV With 6 traits you get 5+4+3+2+1 = 15 combinations. That is why civ3 had all the combinations plus religious/militaristic twice but aztecs and japan with different starting techs. 8 traits gives 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 28 combinations so with 31 civs we can probably expect to see all the possible combinations plus 3 duplicates.

hi ,

still , it would have been good to see maybe two more , so that there are ten in all , ......

and they really should rework the two traits for each civ rule , ....

have a nice day

	14-07-2003 18:53									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Even if one or two of the traits is redone, I think Atari will probably not redo too many of them, because a. that might anger the fan base that has come to identify certain civs with certain traits, and, more importantly, b. it allows for further add-on packages (à la PTW)

As for America being agricultural and industrious... this makes a lot of sense... but despite America's overwhelming agricultural output, it should be noted that current agricultural practices may leave the American breadbasket no longer functioning come the late 21st century. This principally has to do with the abandonment of crop rotation and depletion of fresh water reserves. Still, A-I for America would make a lot of sense. Industrious seems indisputable to me... this is the country, after all, for which "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" was basically written.

	14-07-2003 18:58									#71
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

My guesses:

Greece: Scientific, Seafaring
China: Agricultural, Militaristic
America: Agricultural, Industrious
England: Expansionist, Seafaring
Spain: Religious, Seafaring
Scandinavia: Militaristic, Seafaring
Carthage: Commercial, Seafaring

Hittites: Militaristic, Scientific
Incans: Agricultural, Commercial
Sumerians: Agricultural, Religious


The only thing that really bothers me about this list is that England should really be a Commercial civ, yet I can think of no better to fill the Expansionist/Seafaring slot.


Dominae

	14-07-2003 19:00									#72
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Note that I've only added in changes involving the new traits. If they decide to redo the civs by rearranging the old traits, my first guess is that they would put America as Commercial/Industrious. I've never understood why this was not the case at the game's first release.


Dominae

	14-07-2003 19:14									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Note that I've only added in changes involving the new traits. If they decide to redo the civs by rearranging the old traits, my first guess is that they would put America as Commercial/Industrious. I've never understood why this was not the case at the game's first release.

I think mostly because of the ability of commercial civs to retain large, cohesive overseas empires... America has done this exceptionally well, but chiefly through proxies, not actual colonies. And then, though America controls through the IMF and other institutions the flow of the world's economy to a certain extent, it's not always the best manager of that economy...

...whereas, the rapid of expanion across the North American continent was incredible, similar to the Russian advance through Siberia. An enourmous amount of land was explored, conquered and settled in a brief time. Hence, expansionist. And Industrious is 100% appropriate at almost every stage of America's history. The USA was one of the earliest societies to go industrial...

...there is a very good case to be made for commercial in my view, and an even better case to be made for religious... militaristic is also a contender. But, given the general view in America of America, I think E/I are good choices. A/I would also be good...

...if only civs' traits could "evolve" just as in real life...

	14-07-2003 19:17									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: quote: 4. City centers produce +1 Food at sizes 1-6, +2 Food at sizes 7-12 and +3 Food at sizes 13+; interesting. Powerful. Not as powerful as 30 shield granaries... I don't think. But it could be close. If you are Agr and start next to a grassland cow (or wheat), you're at +5 food/turn really, really fast. Toss in Industrious as the second trait, and your civ won't expand, it'll explode.

The +1 food for towns won't have an effect until after Monarchy/Repuplic. The Despotic tile penalty still applies to the city square, so the bonus for towns would be lost. You would still get an extra boost to Despotic Cities, but the real boost would be delayed until the late Ancient/early Medieval period.

The bonus would be nice, but the Agri trait would need another minor bonus in addition to the home tile bonus to balance it out with the other traits.

	14-07-2003 19:48									#75
	Tired of ads?

To me, "Commercial" means trade, companies and moneymaking; "Commercial" is not equivalent to "colonial expansion". Why do Commercial civs get bonus Commerce in large cities if "Commercial" is supposed to represent colonialism?

It is undeniable that America is a modern-day commercial giant, and "capitalism" was a driving force throughout almost its entire history. America's most defining trait (what makes it stand out in the "history books") is its economic superiority.

I believe they put originally put America as Expansionist/Industrious because no other civ could really fit that description, and they needed a civ for every trait combination. But that does not mean America should be Commercial/Industrious!


Dominae

	14-07-2003 19:50									#76
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Thoth The +1 food for towns won't have an effect until after Monarchy/Repuplic. The Despotic tile penalty still applies to the city square, so the bonus for towns would be lost.

I'm sure the game designers could "hard-code" this effect in order to get around the despotic tile penalty.


Dominae

	14-07-2003 19:57									#77
	Support Apolyton

Good point Dominae , but as you pointed out 3 food from each town's home square would likely be horribly unbalancing in the early game.

	14-07-2003 21:08									#78
	Got spare money?

quote: and an even better case to be made for religious...

Not to kick over an ant hill, because I know what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree, as far as a) the tendency for a large part of today's America to scream as loudly as possible that "we are a Christian nation!" and b) the part religion played in the motivation of the earliest settlers, but I think it would be a disservice to make America a religious civ. Not because of gameplay, but because America's current incarnation, as an independent and organized nation, is specifically and intentionally not based on religious belief, but rather on the rule of law.

When I think of a religious civ, I think it applies more to an Egypt, where the entire civ followed the same religion, and there were public works built for religious purposes, or the hypothetical (game-wise) Hebrew civ, whose defining characteristic is its religion. In the case of the Celts, it's not uncommon (at least here) for a child to know about the civilization's priests, the Druids, before knowing about the civilization itself. India and Arabia, birthplaces of two major religions, also fit the bill well. In short, America neither subscribes to a state religion, was brought together as a culture/civilization by a common religion nor gave birth to a major religion. Because of that, I think an equally strong case can be made against religious as a trait.

To the other options, I definitely think expansionist and industrial fit well, and commercial would be just as appropriate as either of the other two. I don't think militaristic would fit as well, since for most of our history, isolationism ran strong. Early on, we even tended to disband both army and navy when no threat was immediate. America simply hasn't ever seen a strong military as an end unto itself. A better case could be made for scientific, but as one of my professors said, "J.W. Gibbs is the only American to ever make any kind of contribution to the field of thermodynamics." The scientific case would have to be made more on an engineering basis, taking the breakthroughs of others and doing more with them, rather than breakthrough contributions, at least in the classical fields.

Sorry, didn't mean to threadjack.

	15-07-2003 02:06									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

China can't be agricultural. It has to be Militaristic and Industrious, otherwise the Great Wall wouldn't trigger a GA. I remember before the release they specifically changed China to Militaristic and Industrious because of that.

	15-07-2003 02:07									#80
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by skywalker China can't be agricultural. It has to be Militaristic and Industrious, otherwise the Great Wall wouldn't trigger a GA. I remember before the release they specifically changed China to Militaristic and Industrious because of that.

Well, better to change that one wonder. Lordy.

	15-07-2003 02:10									#81
	Put an end to popups!

How could the Great Wall be anything other than what it is?

	15-07-2003 02:38									#82
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think that was a poor decision: IIRC, Rome should have been industrious, Militaristic, China, industrious, Scientific, Persia Militaristic ,Commercial.

As for these traits:

The ability ot feed large pops. was curical for many civs: one of the reasons Rome beat Carthage was that Rome had a huge reserve of men on which it could draw, even after a huge deafeat like Canae.

I think granaires at 2/3 would be fine, with either the ability to irrigate hils, or the ability to irrigate sans fresh water.

	15-07-2003 02:53									#83
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by skywalker How could the Great Wall be anything other than what it is?

I think that a case could be made for industrious -- it took a hell of a lot of work to put that thing together. As for militaristic -- well, it's not really intended to help a militeristic culture as much as defend against one, in my view.

	15-07-2003 03:24									#84
	Tired of ads?

Why could they not make the Great Wall trigger a GA for China?

	15-07-2003 03:44									#85
	Suffering from ads?

What do you mean? Isn't China industrious as well?

	15-07-2003 05:19									#86
	Put an end to popups!

i think having agricultural JUST having cheaper granaries wouldn't work, as the great pyramid would basically make the trait useless (assuming one built it).

	15-07-2003 05:27									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk What do you mean? Isn't China industrious as well?

Sorry I should have included some of the prior stuff. This was in respond to a proposed change of trait for China, where they would no longer have IND trait and hence not get a GA from the wall.
I was asking, why the game could not be rigged to allow it in the case of China, if they drop IND.

	15-07-2003 06:46									#88
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 i think having agricultural JUST having cheaper granaries wouldn't work, as the great pyramid would basically make the trait useless (assuming one built it).

Getting free Granaries in every city, even if they only cost 40 Shields, would still be one of the best Wonder abilities in the game. Still, you're right that Agricultural would get "shafted" with respect to one of the Wonders, and that would be a first. It would not bother me much, however.

* Dominae dreams of cheap Granaries and Industrious Workers.


Dominae

	15-07-2003 06:57									#89
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Maybe the cities could get the 20 extra shields as a one-time influx.

	15-07-2003 09:06									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Okay, I understand now.

Would you favor scripted GA for other culture - wonder pairs?
Egypt and Pyramids
Babylon and Hanging Gardens
Greece and...well, pretty much the rest of the ancient wonders...