10-07-2003 20:00									#1
	New traits! What will Seafaring and Agricultural do? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

As you may have noticed in the GameSpot Conquests review, there will be an overhaul of the Civ traits in Conquests, including two brand new traits: Agricultural and Seafaring.

This will remove some of the awkwardness from some civs, like England, who were not "Expansionist" in the Civ3 sense (free Scout that roams the land looking for riches), but rather in the naval "Seafaring" sense. The Agricultural trait also fits perfectly with some of the new civs, like the Sumerians and the Incans, and may be given to exisiting Civs as well (the Japanese?).

Now, any guesses on what abilities these new traits will confer on their respective Civs? Here are some ideas to get the discussion going:

Agricultural

1. Half-price Granaries; too strong.
2. Irrigation provides +1 Food; could break the "Mine everything" reflex.
3. Irrigation does not require fresh water; boring.
4. City centers produce +1 Food at sizes 1-6, +2 Food at sizes 7-12 and +3 Food at sizes 13+; interesting.
5. 2/3-price Granaries; still very strong.
6. Units travel through Irrigation as Roads; weird.
7. Food Box size reduced; needs to be carefully balanced.

The problem with most of these is that they have to do with Food, which makes sense, but Food is so critical to the early-game that any ability that affects it has the tendency to be overpowered.


Seafaring

1. +1 Move to naval units per Age (for example, +3 Move in the Industrial Age); undermines the Great Lighthouse.
2. Naval trade does not require Harbors; not that good.
3. Naval trade restrictions reduced (trade via Coast and Sea tiles at Map Making, via Ocean at Astronomy); putting 2 and 3 together makes sense.
4. Ships heal at sea (no need to return to a Harbor); again, not powerful enough.
5. Half-cost ships; sounds overpowered, but I like it.
6. Coastal cities get a Harbor for free; not sure what to think about this one...
7. Ships do not require upkeep; not going to happen, but I'm running out of ideas.

Pretty tough to come up with abilities here, as they have to be powerful enough to make the trait worth considering, and yet naval endeavours are not a big part of Civ3.


Any of these sound good to you? Other ideas?


Dominae

	10-07-2003 20:21									#2
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I think those are all good suggestions Dom, although I would disagree that 1/2 price granaries would be too powerful (but then, what do I know. I haven't mastered the art of early-game citizen-slaughtering, myself).

What I really want to know is, are some civs going to get re-assigned traits? Now would be an ideal time... (for example, Militaristic and Seafaring Vikings...)

And, this is off-topic, but I must kvetch: I heard that the Portugese and Dutch will both be "normal" civs as add ons. Why, oh why? Aren't there enough @#*(& Europeans?!?

	10-07-2003 20:24									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth I think those are all good suggestions Dom, although I would disagree that 1/2 price granaries would be too powerful (but then, what do I know. I haven't mastered the art of early-game citizen-slaughtering, myself).

Half-price Granaries would rival for Industrious for sheer power, IMO. Agricultural/Industrious would be the best combination, hands down. I hope they do not create something this unbalancing. The other problem is that they would have to teach the AI to use Granaries effectively, or this traits would be lost on it.

quote: What I really want to know is, are some civs going to get re-assigned traits? Now would be an ideal time... (for example, Militaristic and Seafaring Vikings...)

From the preview, this seems to be the case.


Dominae

	10-07-2003 20:31									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Half-price Granaries would rival for Industrious for sheer power, IMO. Agricultural/Industrious would be the best combination, hands down. I hope they do not create something this unbalancing. The other problem is that they would have to teach the AI to use Granaries effectively, or this traits would be lost on it.

I suppose you're right.

Another thought is the ability to irrigate anything, including hills, even mountains!

Hopefully it'll be something akin to an idea I've had for a while (but don't have the code-writing skills for): some civs get terrain bonuses that others don't... of course, I was thinking Aztecs would get more food or production from a jungle, nothing about plains or grassland being more productive...

...who knows? Maybe they'll change industrious so that mining is quicker for Ind. civs but irrigating ISN'T! How diabolical would that be?

	10-07-2003 20:57									#5
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Agricultural would definitely suggest irrigation bonuses, I think. As for irrigating most everything, I suspect that this is only for the Mesoamerica scenario, which includes Terrace Farming.

The Sumerians appear to be a useless civ, as might have been suspected. They are, for instance, the same bunch as the Babylonians. They appear to be...horror of horrors...expansionist! Yes, in that screenie in which they appear, they have not just Enkidu Warriors (2/2/1? Bowmen?! Maybe there is something redeeming, but I can't see it...), but Scouts! Hopefully, this is only for that scenario. Otherwise, the word "innovative" used in their regard suggests that they are scientific. Perhaps they are religious, as they are building 'Burial Mounds' early on, which appears to be from Ceremonial Burial. I suspect, though, that the Sumerians and the Babylonians, in every way, will have very little difference. They are useless!

Seafaring? The English, the Vikings, the Carthaginians...

	10-07-2003 21:05									#6
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Oh lord. If the Sumerians are one of the "normal" civs (and we could all be proved wrong, they might be scenario-only) and are expanionist, I will finally break my civ3 CDs like all my friends are always urging me to do.

Then again, let's remember that Babylon itself was only a city-state, albeit a powerful one with control of some other cities, and it emerged late in the Mesopatamian "game" as it were... perhaps Babylon itself could be replaced by Sumer! Heresy, I know. But it wouldn't be the end of the world...

	10-07-2003 21:07									#7
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The Enkidu Warrior coud have that new "Stealth Strike" ability that allows it to target any unit in a stack. For 30 Shields it would be a pretty cool unit.

But, let's not threadjack, and stick to the traits here...


Dominae

	10-07-2003 21:21									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae But, let's not threadjack, and stick to the traits here... Dominae

You're right. I quite apologize.

Anyone want to take bets on who's agricultural and who's seafaring?

As I still have no clue who's in and who's not, I'd like to suggesting the following revisions... not gonna happen most likely, but who knows?

Persia - Agricultural, Religious
Reason: birthplace of Mazdaism, one of the first (and still going) monotheistic faiths. Once sustained a MASSIVE population (largest in the world before the Mongol invasion), still substantial today despite the arid landscape.

China - Agricultural, Industrious
Reason: I'd love to see Scientific in there too, but only 2 traits per civ.

Carthage - Seafaring, Commercial
Reason: Industrious? This has always bothered me. What did the Carthaginians do that qualifies them to be industrious? Maybe I'm just an ignorant noob.

English - Seafaring, Commercial
Reason: The sun never sets on the British empire. Expansionist is appropriate, of course. But I'd love to see those Men O'War be more relevant.

Vikings - Seafaring, Militaristic
Reason: C'mon!

Korea - Agricultural OR Seafaring, Commercial
Reason: Gameplay balance. Why is Korea always so damn strong, in terms of tech, culture and trade? Korea throughout history never had this sort of power... not that I've got anything against Korea per se...

Celts - Expanionist, Militaritic
Reason: Ok, I know this seems insane. But I think religious gives these guys too much of an edge. I'm a history nut, and I always get chagrined when the Celts have made it to the modern age, with an impressive empire and gigantic history...

India - Agricultural, religious
Reason: India's current traits are perfectly fine, but I think this might be even better (accuracy wise).

Ottomans - Militaristic, Commercial
Reason: Seems out of left field? Well, I don't know of the Scientific achievements of the Ottomans off-hand, but I do know of their ability to sustain a large, ethnically diverse empire for a long time, and of their impressive military history. Of course, perhaps an even better trait combo would be Militaritic and Industrious, in place of China.

I can't think of more I'd like to speculate about. I doubt serious revisions will be made to the game, so perhaps this post is a bit lame. Just thinking out loud.

	10-07-2003 21:35									#9
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You're right about Ottomans...and Sumerians (who are by the way a normal civ, because they do have their own leaderhead, unlike scenario leaders).

I think India certainly needs to be Agricultural. China, however, is harder to pin down. They could easily be any of the traits, really, except Seafaring (despite Cheng-Ho and the very brief period of naval dominance in the Ming period).

	10-07-2003 21:48									#10
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quote: I think India certainly needs to be Agricultural. China, however, is harder to pin down. They could easily be any of the traits, really, except Seafaring (despite Cheng-Ho and the very brief period of naval dominance in the Ming period).

Three cheers for knowing about this period of history!

quote: Originally posted by History Guy You're right about Ottomans...and Sumerians (who are by the way a normal civ, because they do have their own leaderhead, unlike scenario leaders).

I don't know... I think the verdict is still out on leaderheads. I would not be surprised if all the scenarios get their own leaderheads... in fact, I'd be a little dissappointed if they didn't. Certainly Atari can pay some yos to prepare the leaderheads.

You're probably right, but I wouldn't be surprised if early October arrives and Atari says "Surprise! Here's the real civs and leaderheads!" Imagine the excitement that would generate.

	10-07-2003 21:56									#11
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I am betting that agriculture provides a bonus to the city (as in #4 by Dominae above) along with the ability to irrigate hills and mountains.

Naval - +1 movement (or +1 per age... but I doubt it will be like that), along with one less restriciton on travel. For example, can safely travel coast and sea at the beginning, adn ocean with only astronomy. This would have the appropriate early trade opportunities also.

	10-07-2003 22:06									#12
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Another interesting option for Seafaring is a sort of naval scout unit. The "canoe" perhaps? Of course, seafaring civs would have to start near the sea... which would be most appropriate, don't you think?

The "vessel" would be 0/0/2, or maybe 0/0/3, with no cargo capacity, or at the most 1 cargo capacity. It's an intriguing concept, in my opinion, and would accurately represent the earliest encounters of mankind... the Pelagasians setting sea to Crete, the Phoenicians spreading commerce, the early Polynesian settlement of New Guinea, etc.

In fact, this is something I'd like to design for a mod if they don't include it.

If this sounds too absurd, remember that humans had reached Australia and the outlying islands of the South Pacific 20,000 years ago, without the help of land bridges of any kind.

	10-07-2003 22:39									#13
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IMHO the seafaring trait needs to allow;

early voyages of discovery, all ships can travel safely in sea tiles - gain is trade value of maps and communications

early trade- trade across sea tiles with mapmaking gives early access to resources and luxuries

Also interesting would be:

All ships are vetrans, or have extra move


Agricultutral, obviously has to be about more food
smaller food box
cheap granaries
cheap irrigation

	10-07-2003 22:44									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Myrddin early voyages of discovery, all ships can travel safely in sea tiles - gain is trade value of maps and communications

That is hugely powerful. It's like saying "Starts the game with the Great Lighthouse".

I can't see that one happening. +1 movement per age and half-price harbours sounds far more likely IMHO.

	10-07-2003 22:48									#15
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I really would like to see the "naval scout". I think it should be unable to carry units; early settlement or military harrassment is just too powerful. But early contact is not - and if used correctly, would play tremendously. Moreso than popping goody huts, I think the chief advantage of scouting is making contact with the other civs before anyone else does. This would be the advantage of the naval scout, in addition to getting a sense of the map that few others would.

	10-07-2003 22:50									#16
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What do you think of the chances of Egypt being made Agricultural? The farming of the Nile is of huge importance in their history, obviously.

	10-07-2003 22:53									#17
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet What do you think of the chances of Egypt being made Agricultural? The farming of the Nile is of huge importance in their history, obviously.

The farming of the Nile is important, but no less so the building of the Pyramids and the Sphinx. I think that's why Industrious was choosen originally.

It is a bit of a toss up, though. Doubtless, religious should stay.

One interesting possibility of agricultural would be to get one shield of production from flood plains. Hear me out on this one - many of the earliest cities build alongside the Tigris and Eurphrates were literally built of mud and grass caked together to form bricks. Eridu was rebuilt several times after it melted in the rain. Perhaps the "river-valley civs" deserve to be compensated?

	10-07-2003 23:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth One interesting possibility of agricultural would be to get one shield of production from flood plains. Hear me out on this one - many of the earliest cities build alongside the Tigris and Eurphrates were literally built of mud and grass caked together to form bricks. Eridu was rebuilt several times after it melted in the rain. Perhaps the "river-valley civs" deserve to be compensated?

It's an interesting idea, but I doubt it would happen. Flood plains are already the most powerful non-resource city growth terrain. It is balanced by not being a shield producer. Adding a shield to it would make it THE most powerful terrain type IMHO.

As to who gets agriculture, a case could be made for almost all the civs. Seafaring is obvious that it should only go to certain civs, but many of the civs have historically had good agricultural bases in their heyday.

	10-07-2003 23:15									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill As to who gets agriculture, a case could be made for almost all the civs. Seafaring is obvious that it should only go to certain civs, but many of the civs have historically had good agricultural bases in their heyday.

Quite true. It's not easy to concieve of what the agricultural trait might add - though I think +1 in the city square with 1/2 priced granaries and maybe another, new improvement, are the most likely benefits - whether or not this unbalances the game.

	10-07-2003 23:23									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Quite true. It's not easy to concieve of what the agricultural trait might add - though I think +1 in the city square with 1/2 priced granaries and maybe another, new improvement, are the most likely benefits - whether or not this unbalances the game.

Well we have 3 or 4 months of speculation to try and figure it out. I honestly don't have a clue what it might be, but I really hope it's balanced well.

	10-07-2003 23:32									#21
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Would it be likely that they give seafaring civs extra commerce or food from coast/sea/ocean tiles?

This would encourage founding cities on the coast, as opposed to inland.

One extra food per tile, for example, would have the food effect of a free harbor (with no additional benefit from building a harbor in Despotism, except from fish and whales).

	10-07-2003 23:38									#22
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quote: 4. City centers produce +1 Food at sizes 1-6, +2 Food at sizes 7-12 and +3 Food at sizes 13+; interesting.

Powerful. Not as powerful as 30 shield granaries... I don't think. But it could be close. If you are Agr and start next to a grassland cow (or wheat), you're at +5 food/turn really, really fast. Toss in Industrious as the second trait, and your civ won't expand, it'll explode.

Dunno if this really works either, but what about exempting agricultural civs from government penalties on food production? It could have a similar effect to your #4, but would be a tad more hit 'n miss.

Seafaring: I would remove 1/2 price harbors from militaristic and give it to seafarers, plus a +1 movement for their ships. No "safe on sea tiles" bonus, though. Gotta build the Lighthouse for that (but then you have 5-move galleys. Mmmm.... Vikings.... mmmm).

-Arrian

	10-07-2003 23:48									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Seafaring: I would remove 1/2 price harbors from militaristic and give it to seafarers...

That was my first thought also, but wouldn't that weaken militaristic civs too much? I think the existing traits are nicely balanced as they are.

	11-07-2003 00:00									#24
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My hunch is that Seafaring will have to do with naval power, most probably making ships better (reduced cost, extra movement, etc.). This area is sorely lacking in the game so far, and is a therefore a prime area for improvement.

To me, giving bonuses to Coast tiles (Food or Commerce) does not fit the "Seafaring" description. It would make more sense to encourage the Vikings and the English to build boats instead of simply making their coastal cities better.


Dominae

	11-07-2003 00:00									#25
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i'm not sure about china and india being agricultural, with their near constant famines and everyone basically being hungry constantly

	11-07-2003 00:16									#26
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quote: Originally posted by alexman That was my first thought also, but wouldn't that weaken militaristic civs too much? I think the existing traits are nicely balanced as they are.

I don't think so, really. Militaristic is, for me, mostly about the cheap barracks and quick promotions. I often play militaristic civs and partway through the game find myself saying "oh yeah, cool! I get 1/2 cost harbors!" If I didn't get them I wouldn't be all that upset. Sure, it does devalue the trait a bit, but not much, IMO.

This is probably because I play continents maps. If I played 'pelago maps more, harbors would be more important to me.

-Arrian

	11-07-2003 00:23									#27
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Regarding seafaring: It may be possible to go through most or all of a game without this trait doing anything. What if you start out in the middle of a large continent on a large map? What if an AI civ does? You could spend a good deal of a game trying to reach the sea so your seafaring trait "kicks in." The AI may not know enough to do this.

All the other traits, by comparison, never have this problem. They are all "active" from the start.

	11-07-2003 00:36									#28
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Half cost Harbors are very important part of the Militaristic trait for me. 40 extra Shields is a long time to wait for all your coastal cities to actually beging paying off. Militaristic/Religious is my favorite trait combination these days (again), simply because it halves the cost on all the most important improvements (save Granaries, but those are typically not built in large numbers).

On another note, would half cost Granaries really be that powerful? You get a really really nice early boost, but in the entire game you would only save on about 100 or so Shields? Or would they be cheap enough to build in all cities?


Dominae

	11-07-2003 00:37									#29
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Alexman,

Going back to the militaristic trait, I can think of two ways to strengthen it to compensate for the loss of cheap harbors:

1) a small boost to free unit support. Something like 4 free units no matter what government you use... a boost early, fairly inconsequential late.

2) a small reduction in war weariness.

-Arrian

	11-07-2003 00:40									#30
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Dominae,

Consider what could be done with that early boost, though. That's where the power lies.

And I end up with granaries in nearly every city. Once you hit size13, you either need a ridiculous food surplus or a granary for reasonable growth. Most core cities will have one by the medieval age. The rest will get them in the early industrial (when they take ~2 turns) to build. Unless I have the Pyramids by then, of course.

-Arrian