15-07-2003 18:04									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Even if one or two of the traits is redone, I think Atari will probably not redo too many of them, because a. that might anger the fan base that has come to identify certain civs with certain traits, and, more importantly, b. it allows for further add-on packages (à la PTW) As for America being agricultural and industrious... this makes a lot of sense... but despite America's overwhelming agricultural output, it should be noted that current agricultural practices may leave the American breadbasket no longer functioning come the late 21st century. This principally has to do with the abandonment of crop rotation and depletion of fresh water reserves. Still, A-I for America would make a lot of sense. Industrious seems indisputable to me... this is the country, after all, for which "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" was basically written.

hi ,

conquests shall have everything from PTW , ......

lets hope the next xp shall have everything from conquests and some new stuff , .....

have a nice day

	15-07-2003 18:06									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Getting free Granaries in every city, even if they only cost 40 Shields, would still be one of the best Wonder abilities in the game. Still, you're right that Agricultural would get "shafted" with respect to one of the Wonders, and that would be a first. It would not bother me much, however. * Dominae dreams of cheap Granaries and Industrious Workers. Dominae

hi ,

cheap graneries and aqua's , yes , industrious workers , , there is a trait for that , .....

have a nice day

	16-07-2003 08:49									#93
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Seafaring is most likely to reduce the chance of sinking in tiles where the ship is not allowed (say a reduction from 50% to 25%) and perhaps a +1 movement. Half price harbors are a possibility as well.

Agricultural is likely to reduce the time for irrigating tiles and/ or bonuses to irrigated tiles. Also I would like to see Rice as a new bonus resource (in swamp)


For Seafaring:
English
America
Vikings
Carthage
Japan
Dutch and/or Portugal (if included)

for Agricultural:
China
Baylon
Persia
Iroqouis
korea
Sumeria (if Included)

	16-07-2003 09:10									#94
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Are we certain that swamp is in there?

	16-07-2003 09:12									#95
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I don't see Japan as seafaring. The Japanese were half-hearted sailors, and did not like being out of sight of land at all, in spite of being an island nation. The Chinese took sea exploration a lot futher than the Japanese.

	16-07-2003 15:39									#96
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Are we certain that swamp is in there?

There are screenshots of it.

	16-07-2003 17:06									#97
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I started thinking about which Great Wonders would the new traits be attached to.

There is a new wonder, Statue of Zeus, which sounds militaristic and religious. Assuming no GW works for more than 3 traits (except the Internet) and that each trait is linked to 5 wonders plus the Internet I came up with these ideas.

Seafaring

Colossus - in place of religious which would go to Statue of Zeus
Great Lighthouse - obvious candidate
Great Library - the GL was possible because Alexandria was a great commercial port centre so it is plausible
Magellan - again an obvious choice
SETI - because the next voyages of exploration we make will be across space

An alternative would be Newton as accurate knowledge of the movement of the planets was important for 18th century navigation

Agricultural

Pyramids - obvious
Hanging Gardens - plausible choice
Copernicus - to reflect the ancient use of astronomical observations to govern planting times for crops
Hoover - dams are used for irrigation as much as for hydroelectric power

A fifth choice isn't easy. Possibilities are Universal Suffrage reflecting the need for labour or, perhaps a better choice, either Cure for Cancer or Longevity to reflect current efforts for agricultural improvement through GM technology

Unless of course there is to be more than one new GW in Conquests?

	16-07-2003 19:17									#98
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quote: Originally posted by zorbop (...)might also be assured a starting location near the ocean.(..)

and maybe agricultural civs will start near rivers.

QUOTE] Originally posted by CerberusIV
(...)SETI - because the next voyages of exploration we make will be across space(...)[/QUOTE]

another idea, seafarers get cheaper space parts!

	18-07-2003 11:45									#99
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm There are screenshots of it.

Excellent. I wonder if they saw my suggestion...

	21-07-2003 08:56									#100
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Seafaring civilizations could take benefit from any sea technology they would actually reshearching for, before having discovered it yet.

I think the + 1 ships movement would be ok, same as a bonus for ship construction.

	21-07-2003 09:07									#101
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Interesting, but I don't think it would be good from a balance standpoint. besides, there's no way to identify a "sea technology" in a way the game would understand it, so I don't believe it's possible.

	21-07-2003 12:29									#102
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My guesses:

Agricultural:
- cheaper granaries - makes sense
- irrigate without fresh water - good when starting with lots of plains but no water, highly probable IMO
- food bonus to apply in despotism - hmm, not bad
- irrigate hills (maybe even mountains)
- bonus food in city center - highly probable, I think
- workers to irrigate faster - makes sense, but will then industr. workers lose that ability?
- more food from bad terrain (jungle, desert) - logical, but won't happen; desert tiles would become plains, civ-wise
- more food from special resources (wheat, cows) - could this be programmed ?

Seafaring:
- cheaper harbors
- cheaper ships
(the first 2 would make sense, to encourage seafaring nations to build ships)
- ships heal at sea
- faster ship promotion
- less chances for ships to sink when sailing in unknown waters (galleys on sea, caravels on ocean, etc)
(these 3 make sense, too; more powerful navies for seafaring nations is logical)
- a special ship type for seafaring nations (I don't really think this will happen)
- more troops to be transported in ships - I like it
- +1 movement for ships - too powerful;
- more food or commerce from sea tiles - too powerful; or not ?

Note: not all of them in the same time; would be overpowering.

	21-07-2003 19:07									#103
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Interesting, but I don't think it would be good from a balance standpoint.

Too powerfull or too weak?

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk besides, there's no way to identify a "sea technology" in a way the game would understand it, so I don't believe it's possible.

The sea technologies would be of course pre determinated, it would be i guess Map Making, Astronomy, Navigation, Magnetism, Mass Production?... We could also modify the requiered technologies so that the features of sea ones could be enabled. Sea techs would be "available" but needed to be discovered or exchanged yet. For example Map Maping would be needed to search for Republic, Magnetism to reach the next era... only Navigation would be as if given for free.

	21-07-2003 22:56									#104
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Another possible bonus of the agricultural trait are larger city size limits, e.g. size 8 without aqueducts and size 14 without hospitals.

SMAC's peacekeeper faction had a bonus of this kind (+2 limit, though SMAC's limits itself were different - 7/14 instead of Civ3's 6/12).

	30-07-2003 01:42									#105
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Are we certain that swamp is in there?

Bad news.

The Mesopotamian scenario is listed as having a "Marsh" terrain. They could have easily replaced another terrain type

	30-07-2003 18:22									#106
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Just had an idea for a bonus for the Seafarers....

During the age of sail, allow a % chance that the Seafarer ship will board and capture the enemy ship rather than sink it. If captured the new ship would be badly damaged but still afloat. This is particularly valid for privateers since they only got any money at all by plundering captured ships and would NEVER sink a merchant ship intentionally.

Most naval battles in the age of sail did not result in ships sinking. This only occured if the ship was holed many times below the waterline (very unlikely), caught fire, got hit in the magazine or hit a reef. A normal gunnery duel would wreck the rigging, gun decks and send the scuppers running with blood but would not sink the ship.

This might be too powerful for only the seafarers to be allowed so perhaps a general rule for all but the seafarers get a higher % chance of capture?

The only drawback with this is that it doesnt really work post age of sail. Modern naval weapons cause plently enough damage to cause explosions and sink enemy ships, they are also easy to scuttle to deny the enemy. So perhaps some other bonus could apply in the modern naval era - movement bonus springs to mind - it really shouldnt take ships capable of 35knots in any weather 10 years to cross the Atlantic.

Any thoughts?

	30-07-2003 18:41									#107
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An intriguing idea, especially as expansionists can currently capture scouts... this would work very well in conjunction with a "naval scout" unit...

	30-07-2003 19:02									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth An intriguing idea, especially as expansionists can currently capture scouts... this would work very well in conjunction with a "naval scout" unit...

hi ,

, with an option to hold or transport one , .....

it would be great if only foot units could be transported with this naval scout , no settlers or workers , .......

have a nice day

	30-07-2003 20:37									#109
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Asmodeus, good idea

	30-07-2003 20:45									#110
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing I am betting that agriculture provides a bonus to the city (as in #4 by Dominae above) along with the ability to irrigate hills and mountains. Naval - +1 movement (or +1 per age... but I doubt it will be like that), along with one less restriciton on travel. For example, can safely travel coast and sea at the beginning, adn ocean with only astronomy. This would have the appropriate early trade opportunities also.

I think Incans or Mayans will be those who can irrigate the mountains by "terrace farming"


sorry if already mentioned here

Map generator doesn't often make maps with seas in-land, like Caspian or Mediterranean-Aegean-Marmara-Black Sea.

and yes! New resources

	30-07-2003 21:20									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodeus Just had an idea for a bonus for the Seafarers.... During the age of sail, allow a % chance that the Seafarer ship will board and capture the enemy ship rather than sink it. If captured the new ship would be badly damaged but still afloat. This is particularly valid for privateers since they only got any money at all by plundering captured ships and would NEVER sink a merchant ship intentionally. Most naval battles in the age of sail did not result in ships sinking. This only occured if the ship was holed many times below the waterline (very unlikely), caught fire, got hit in the magazine or hit a reef. A normal gunnery duel would wreck the rigging, gun decks and send the scuppers running with blood but would not sink the ship. This might be too powerful for only the seafarers to be allowed so perhaps a general rule for all but the seafarers get a higher % chance of capture? Any thoughts?

These are all very feasible, realistic and GREAT!

Some naval battles ended up with the navy being burnt and sunk, but not privateer attacks. There could still be a possibility of sinking enemy ships

Could we have "coastal huts" (a novel name would be better) that give free naval scouts, naval units or reveal barbarian galleys/caravels/privateers?

	30-07-2003 21:38									#112
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I started thinking about which Great Wonders would the new traits be attached to. There is a new wonder, Statue of Zeus, which sounds militaristic and religious. Assuming no GW works for more than 3 traits (except the Internet) and that each trait is linked to 5 wonders plus the Internet I came up with these ideas.

There will be 7 or so new civs, new resources, new units, new civ traits, new unit actions
Why not more brand-new wonders?
Some of the things in mods were very interesting

	30-07-2003 21:57									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV The Ottoman empire preserved the science of the ancient world while Europe was less advanced. I'm sure there is a reason for industrious (I just can't think of it)

They had caravansaries for improving trade, mosques more or less like the cathedrals/churches in countries with Christian people, palaces in Istanbul, libraries and fountains in several citites, in short they an ample deal of infrastructure and construction in their golden age
I'm not sure though, they were militaristic and expansionist as well

	31-07-2003 18:35									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Naokaukodem The sea technologies would be of course pre determinated, it would be i guess Map Making, Astronomy, Navigation, Magnetism, Mass Production?... We could also modify the requiered technologies so that the features of sea ones could be enabled. Sea techs would be "available" but needed to be discovered or exchanged yet. For example Map Maping would be needed to search for Republic, Magnetism to reach the next era... only Navigation would be as if given for free.

Mass Production??

Sea Techs: Map Making, Astronomy, Navigation, Magnetism, Miniturization, Amphibious Assault.

Perhaps Sea-faring will allow all foot units to make amphibious assaults?

	01-08-2003 14:49									#115
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quote: Originally posted by ISTANBUL These are all very feasible, realistic and GREAT! Some naval battles ended up with the navy being burnt and sunk, but not privateer attacks. There could still be a possibility of sinking enemy ships Could we have "coastal huts" (a novel name would be better) that give free naval scouts, naval units or reveal barbarian galleys/caravels/privateers?

Even if this feature of capturing ships isnt included in the XP, I think it might be 'Modable'. It may not have the animation like captured workers but it could work rather like capturing the alien boil thingies from SMAC. But particularly for privateers I think it would be worth doing - normally I never bother building privateers but that would make them worth it IMHO.

	01-08-2003 14:57									#116
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This thread should be moved to the new forum.

hope they will help out the privateers, let me have some fun with them.

	02-08-2003 01:55									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Seafaring is most likely to reduce the chance of sinking in tiles where the ship is not allowed (say a reduction from 50% to 25%) and perhaps a +1 movement. Half price harbors are a possibility as well. Agricultural is likely to reduce the time for irrigating tiles and/ or bonuses to irrigated tiles. Also I would like to see Rice as a new bonus resource (in swamp) For Seafaring: English America Vikings Carthage Japan Dutch and/or Portugal (if included) for Agricultural: China Baylon Persia Iroqouis korea Sumeria (if Included)

Are you sure you didn't mean to put America under Agricultural? Despite America's immense naval superiority, it doesn't really count as seafaring the way Britain or the Vikings do.

quote: Interesting, but I don't think it would be good from a balance standpoint. besides, there's no way to identify a "sea technology" in a way the game would understand it, so I don't believe it's possible.

This could be difficult to implement, and could cause immense problems (and would be very subject to abuse). It would also require a lot of new code.

	02-08-2003 02:29									#118
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A quick idea for agricultural:

Maybe tiles adjascent to rivers would get one extra food, or maybe tile bonuses will produce one extra food than normal. That would be a good boost in early game, but wouldn't be too overpowering for the whole game.

	02-08-2003 02:38									#119
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I still think that "terrace farming" and half-price granaries would be good enough for agricultural...

...if there's no half-price granaries, there better be some significant benefit, because I think that a lot of players tend to mine almost every square... true, boorish mining is no good, but if you've got to conquer earlier on, production tends to be more important than food.

But don't get me wrong, I welcome the addition of "agricultural" as a trait strongly.

TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC:

What if someone added "Inclusive" as a Civ trait? The two bonuses being it's easier to alien cultures to be absorbed into that civ, and maybe captured/traded workers don't suffer a penalty? Or maybe a diplomatic bonus of some kind?

	03-08-2003 16:53									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV Bad news. The Mesopotamian scenario is listed as having a "Marsh" terrain. They could have easily replaced another terrain type

Not bad news for me.

I've wanted swamp in from the time I first learned it wasn't in.