11-07-2003 20:40									#1
	Poland as a new civ in Conquests Tired of ads?

Most of the recent discussions concerning new civilizations on these boards have revolved around adding civs from south east Asia or Africa. While I agree that it would be nice to add Mali and Khme, there is one civilization that I think deserves inclusion: the Poles. There is only one Slavic civilization in the game (Russia), and Russia does not represent the Western Slavs. I think that either a Polish or a Pan-Slavic civ representing Western Slavs(Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Lithuanians, etc) deserve serious consideration when discussing new civilizations.

Why should they be in? Well, the Poles and other Western Slavs played a major role in Europe from the Middle Ages up to the present day. From around 1575-to around 1700 Poland was arguably the most powerful force on the continent. The Polish army halted the expansion of the Ottomans in 1683, and nearly conquered Russia. Culturally, the West Slavs have been influential from the Slavic participation in the reformation all the way up to Solidarity movement and the fall of the Soviet Union.

This is an interesting Polish history website:
http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/HistoryPolska.html

Overall, I feel that the Poles are as justifiable as the Portuguese, Dutch, Khmer, etc. Some may argue that there are too many European civs. On a world map, Western Europe is crowded, Eastern Europe is relatively empty, and besides, Eastern European peoples have a cultural heritage that is different from those of Western Europe. Besides, Poland would be a perfect civ to launch the new agricultural trait with. On a final note, there are millions of Poles/ Western Slavs in the US/Canada, and Slavic Civ 3 fans would probably love to be able to play as the Poles.

My ideas for a Polish civ: Leader: Casimir the Great (1333-1371)? Stefan Batory (late sixteenth century)? Lech Walesa?
Traits: Religious & Agricultural
Cities: Capital:Warsaw
Krakow,Lodz, Wroclaw, Lublin, Posnan, etc. (if strictly a Polish Civ)
Bratislava, Ljubjana, Brno, Plzen, Prague, etc. (if a pan-Slav civ)

UU: Either the Hussars, the elite Polish Cavalry of the Seventeenth Century, who would replace Cavalry and get an extra movement point at a slighty higher cost, or an upgraded Musketman with an extra defense point (Polish infantry was known for its rapid rate of fire)

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Last edited by Wycoff on 23-07-2003 at 22:37

	11-07-2003 23:26									#2
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Vilnius? easy there, as an American student who once did a report on Lithuania, I suggest for your own good we pretend that the Polish-Lithuanian union never happens.

unless of course you wish to challenge the sovereignty of my people

(the above sarcastic post has nothing to do with you being German)

	12-07-2003 03:29									#3
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Plus, there is already a Slavic Great Wonder. Copernicus was Polish.

	12-07-2003 03:53									#4
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quote: Lithuanians,

They aren't Slavs.

quote: Vilnius? easy there, as an American student who once did a report on Lithuania, I suggest for your own good we pretend that the Polish-Lithuanian union never happens. unless of course you wish to challenge the sovereignty of my people (the above sarcastic post has nothing to do with you being German)

It was only in XIX century that some Lithuanian radical politicians decided to separate from Polish movement and change the status of Lithuanian speech. And it was only Lithuanian agressive nationalism to be blamed for the Wilno/Vilnius problem after Iww.

	12-07-2003 05:35									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson They aren't Slavs.

I was just including them because of the Polish-Lithuanian Union. If Lithuanians wouldn't want to be part of a Polish/Slav civ, then they wouldn't have to be included.

	12-07-2003 06:10									#6
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I like the idea, but I would love to see a Slav civ rather than only a Polish, 'cause, as Wycoff said, had bigger territory to cover, cities and cultural background that only one nation.

	12-07-2003 06:30									#7
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How does that country stay so shiney?

	12-07-2003 07:50									#8
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That sounds like a great idea. I was actualy thinking that if I were to choose 8 civs for the next XP (as there were 8 in PtW), they would be:

Incas
Mayas
Polynesians
Khmer
Mali
(some Native American tribe)
Slavs (after what you said, the Polish might be a better choice)
...and then something else

TETurkhan's Test of Time had both Hungarians and the Polish, but I think only one tribe would be necessary. But it would definately be a good thing to have Easter Europe represented more.

	12-07-2003 07:55									#9
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quote: Polynesians

I've always said that a civ from Polynesia should be a must in this xp.

	12-07-2003 08:04									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Chilean President I've always said that a civ from Polynesia should be a must in this xp.

Well if you think about it, they have covered more ground (well sea really :P) than most other cultures on Earth before the modern age. They were everywhere from Indonesia, across all the Pacific islands: Samoa, Hawaii, etc., and possibly even to South America at one point. Though they never had a single center of power, their culture has permeated through the ages even through modern times, and they were possibly the greatest seafarers of all time.

	12-07-2003 08:14									#11
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Well they get to South America from the pacific island near Ecuador and Peru.

Each polynesian culture have their own central powers. For example, the Kingdom of Easter Island had a long time dinasty and I believe the same thing happpen in Hawaii, Tahiti and others.

to become a playable civ we should find a link between them... anyway the territory land would be a problem.

	12-07-2003 08:18									#12
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Yes, they would be hard to play on an Earth map since they lived on the thousands of tiny islands in the Pacific. But it would still be fun to play with them on a random map, especialy an archipelago one.

	12-07-2003 22:24									#13
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If a new civilization should be added to the Europe than it should definitely be Poland. Why? Because the Poland is a really old kingdom and the forementioned Lithuanian and Polish union had a great golden age, their terrytory reached ol almost reached Black Sea. Just to name some important things about Poland and Lithuania: The kingdom existed in tenth century, I believe; they repelled the Ottomans; The unions downfall ended in dividing their territory between Prussia, Austria-Hungary and Russia and the Solidarnosc movement. Lithuania was one of the most active countries trying (successfully) to get independence from the colonial empire called Soviet Union...

Lithuanians sure did have good medieval cavalry, that's why they managed to remain independent from Teutone crusade and conquered the territory from Mongol(?) tribes in Ukraine. When mentioning Hussars then at least I associate the Hussars with the Hungarians. I am not sure if it would be a good unit for Poland because Austria-Hungary was one of the three countries which were the undertakers of Rzespospolita in XVIII century... Would that not be inept? Perhaps some Polish or Lithuanians will explain it in more detail... Aye, one more thing - do the Lithuanians and the Polish dislike that they once were in one country?! I doubt.

I also think that some african kingdoms should be added - the Zulu are definitely were not the most shining civilization in Africa. I think. Although the Mali, Ghana, Songhay were once quite powerful ones they were not very long-aged, thus I would like to see Ethiopia as a civ: they have amazing history and they are one of the oldest christian countries. Haussa and Yoruba are also cultures with long traditions (Benin). Still, I would like to see Ethiopia instead of Mali (or Ghana which exported gold to Rome. BTW it might be said that the ancient South Africa had contacts with the Rome (Ivory!) and China (Chinese ceramics).

	12-07-2003 23:11									#14
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"do the Lithuanians and the Polish dislike that they once were in one country?! I doubt."

from my limited knowledge, I believe some Lithuanians saw themselves as a junior partner and were happy with the split. I'm sure some did like the union and I assume most Poles enjoyed the union, as well.

	13-07-2003 00:37									#15
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Hmm... Including island civs might be a bit odd, since they were never really military or cultural powers. They did, however, have stunning achievements such as crossing the Pacific using only simple shell charts of stars, constructing the limestone city of Nan Madol in Pohnpei (something that most people overlook ), and the natives of Easter Island built those impressive Moai statues.

Poland should be in as well, though Europe in CivIII is getting REALLY crowded.

	13-07-2003 15:29									#16
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Actually you may be right, bobbo008 - the population sizes are quite different.

	13-07-2003 16:45									#17
	Re: Poland as a new civ in Conquests Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Wycoff My ideas: Leader: Lech Walesa? Casimir the Great? Traits: Religious & Agricultural Cities: Capital:Warsaw Vilnius, Krakow,Prague, Wroclaw, Bratislava, Ljubjana, Brno, Plzen, Wroclaw, Lodz, etc. UU: Either the Hussars, the elite Polish Cavalry of the Seventeenth Century, who would replace Knights and get an extra movement point, or an upgraded Musketman with an extra defense point (Polish infantry was known for its rapid rate of fire) Any thoughts or suggestions?

i always believed that there should be a second slavic civilisation. and poland is the largest and historically most important that it's no question, the this 2nd slav civ should be the polish.
however, you can't using the cities you mentioned.
Vilnius (LIT), Krakow (POL), Prague (CZE), Wroclaw (POL?), Bratislava (slovakia), Ljubjana (slovenia), Brno (CZE), Plzen (CZE?), etc.
the iroquios may represent the native north american tribes, but they havn't been given the city names of other tribes.
so stick to the polish cities, there's more than enough

as for the UU, we've got too many knight and cavalry replacements. not as many as the ancient age units (i'm worried 5 or 6 new UUs will be in the first half of the ancient age), but still.
how about a dolly buster UU. works like a civ2 spy, enters cities and takes over the local pornindusty ... works especially well in german cities
i do like the idea of another musketman replacement. and 2,5,1 could make the polish to the greek in the ancient age: nearly unattackable... until cavalry and then still there'll be a lot of dead horse meat

	13-07-2003 17:21									#18
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I beg You, not Walesa.

And in fact, the second biggest Slavic state today, when it comes to territory and population, is Ukraine. But it's independant for a very short time.

	13-07-2003 17:29									#19
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oops, true, sorry... forgot them

but imagine if you build a nuclear plant in a ukrainean city and it blows.... wouldn't that be i little be too PI

looking at the apolyton community i believe there is a bigger polish civ3-population than ukraina.
but then, on a world map, poland is just squashing in the germans, the ukraine is a little bit better positioned...

	13-07-2003 21:51									#20
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"poland is just squashing in the germans"

and i think i know what that means, just ask the Germany's neighbors: France, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic, and Austria what happens

(you lucky little Swiss)

	13-07-2003 22:45									#21
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well, at least the germans have some sea... swiss don't (italy, germany, france, austria, liechtenstein)

but i did just mean it in civ3 terms

	13-07-2003 23:40									#22
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quote: on a world map, poland is just squashing in the germans,

I see no problem. Lets remove German civ.

	14-07-2003 01:16									#23
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We have way too many European civs already.

quote: I see no problem. Lets remove German civ.

	14-07-2003 01:30									#24
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well, from the German point of view, you can remove every civ but the Germans

	14-07-2003 01:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Danarchy Yes, they would be hard to play on an Earth map since they lived on the thousands of tiny islands in the Pacific. But it would still be fun to play with them on a random map, especialy an archipelago one.

Well their unique unit could be a catamaran, buildable without a tech needed, coast hugging, 1 passenger, no attack or defense. Traits would be seafaring and expansionistic.

	14-07-2003 01:46									#26
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uhm... i think you're mixing up germany with another big power in the world

but now back on topic

quote: Incas Mayas Polynesians Khmer Mali (some Native American tribe) Slavs (after what you said, the Polish might be a better choice) ...and then something else

i definetly would like to have polynesians in! also 1 or 2 african civs (nubia, mali?). maybe even the inuit, one of the most remarkable civ to survive in the those regions!

but i don't believe these are in. with hititties (i prefer this spelling ), sumerians, dutch, portuguese (thunderfall, a beta tester has confirmed these), most probably inca - 5 of 7 spots gone...
polish, maya, khmer, hebrew, etc. may be fighting for the last positions...

	14-07-2003 02:00									#27
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Ah, well...maybe next expansion...

	14-07-2003 02:30									#28
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Maybe Civ4

I hope in Civ 4 a bigger map (that doesn't consume so many PC resources) to have a lot, but a lot of Civs!!!

Chile of course should be included

	14-07-2003 02:53									#29
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well, civ1 came out in 1991, civ2 iirc 1996, civ3 end of 2001. ... so civ4 should be somewhere around 2006 ;-)

i hope by then i'm rich enough to buy firaxis and influence the game a bit

	14-07-2003 12:45									#30
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 well, from the German point of view, you can remove every civ but the Germans

Egoists.