14-07-2003 18:07									#32
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Why should they even have a Civ4?

They've already said there are major changes in this "expansion", which will certainly be full price; all they have to do is put out another expansion every year or so, Evercrack style, and let the game evolve that way.

Civ 4 need not appear, ever.

	14-07-2003 18:35									#33
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Civ3 needn't have appeared.

	15-07-2003 01:52									#34
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Why should they even have a Civ4? They've already said there are major changes in this "expansion", which will certainly be full price; all they have to do is put out another expansion every year or so, Evercrack style, and let the game evolve that way. Civ 4 need not appear, ever.

well, gameplay may not always get better, but graphics, sounds and ideas can. e.g. the culture borders is imho the best idea since the original idea of civilization.

but even with a yearly expansion, sooner or later you need a new version.

as long as they don't fück up the game by changing a wonderful idea and giving it tons of 3D-graphics. prince of persia 1 was great for it's time. prince of persia 3D sücked because the visuals where too much...

keep it simple, but make it nice...

	15-07-2003 16:10									#35
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk ...They've already said there are major changes in this "expansion", which will certainly be full price...

For the record, we've already announced that the suggested retail price of Civilization III: Conquests will be $29.99 (USD).

Best,
Jeff Foley
Atari

	16-07-2003 10:45									#36
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jeff,
if c3c keeps it's promises and has some more surprises, you can charge 49.99

the game shops here anyway add on their 50%

	17-07-2003 06:12									#37
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there's no way they'd get away with a 50 dollar expansion pack...

	17-07-2003 08:30									#38
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For me, $29.99 is full price.

	17-07-2003 08:55									#39
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk For me, $29.99 is full price.

And that's one of the reasons it isn't $50. Many people could afford that and would pay it (like me if it were that much), but many others couldn't. By pricing it for the ones who can't they'll sell more in the long run.

	17-07-2003 09:13									#40
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I think you used the wrong term. It is not can afford or can not afford as much as it willing to pay that amount.
Some could afford to pay $100, but they won't do it.
It seems he market place as choosen $29.99 as the break point, unless you are Blizzard.

	17-07-2003 09:45									#41
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I think you used the wrong term. It is not can afford or can not afford as much as it willing to pay that amount. Some could afford to pay $100, but they won't do it. It seems he market place as choosen $29.99 as the break point, unless you are Blizzard.

Hmm, you're probably right about it not being the right choice of wording. I would be willing to pay $50, but it's not worth $100. It would be bad marketing to set it that high anyway though.

EDIT: Sorry for the threadjack.

	17-07-2003 12:34									#42
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What threadjack?

	17-07-2003 21:20									#43
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk What threadjack?

The original thread was about Poland as a civ and it turned into pricing for Conquests.

	18-07-2003 10:55									#44
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For all of seven posts, then it turned to Polynesia, then back to Poland, Ukraine, Poland, Polynesia, Civ 4, etc.

	18-07-2003 17:26									#45
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I also think that Poland is an obvious choice for the next XP... but please don't put Prague as a polish city, I think that could make some problems.

	19-07-2003 13:19									#46
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I believe Civ, as a globally oriented game, should only include civilizations with a global impact. It may be personally satisfying or fun to have your own or a favorite civ in a game but it isn't always realistic.

	19-07-2003 13:30									#47
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Since when is Civ realistic?

	19-07-2003 21:19									#48
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quote: but i don't believe these are in. with hititties (i prefer this spelling ), sumerians, dutch, portuguese (thunderfall, a beta tester has confirmed these), most probably inca - 5 of 7 spots gone...

You forgot to mention the Maya. They were confirmed by Atari itself.
So there's only one spot left .

	19-07-2003 21:32									#49
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were they confirmed for the main game or just the mesoamerican scenario?

	19-07-2003 21:37									#50
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They are confirmd for the main game.
There UU is the Mayan Javalin.

	20-07-2003 04:10									#51
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"I believe Civ, as a globally oriented game, should only include civilizations with a global impact. It may be personally satisfying or fun to have your own or a favorite civ in a game but it isn't always realistic."

unfortunately i think most of the civs with a big global impact are already in the game. to my knowledge, the only thing Carthage did was have a few wars with Rome and invade Italy. It seems to me that they only deserve to be in a scenario. i was also angered to see the Iroquious. Living in the Midwest of the USA, nobody here has even heard of the Iroqious. I'd think something like the Crow or Sioux would be better. Or maybe those tribes are more famous here...

edit: looking at the above post, it may be difficult to understand my rambling.

i dont think Carthage deserves to be a civ when there are more deserving civs not in the game. I also think that the Iroqious are a poor choice for a Native American civ.

there we go

Last edited by bobbo008 on 20-07-2003 at 04:36

	20-07-2003 09:47									#52
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Since when is Civ realistic?

We have people in this and other threads discussing real nations and history. By your reasoning such talk is irrelevent. You can't have it both ways.

What I was trying to say is that we shouldn't get carried away adding additional civs to the game. Nations such as China, France, Russia, and England have made a huge impact on the world. My own country, the US, is still relatively new (and evolved from English colonies). Poland, historically speaking, has been a speed bump between Germany and Russia (no insult intended to our Polish friends ).

	21-07-2003 16:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Poland, historically speaking, has been a speed bump between Germany and Russia (no insult intended to our Polish friends ).

Much more than "speed bump"

	22-07-2003 02:00									#54
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Poland wasn't just a speed bumb. As I said before, Poland was a major power in the late middle ages.
If one considers the other Slavic peoples that I mentioned and their various contributions to civilization, it is apparent that they should be added as a civiliazation, either as a Slavic civ, or by having the Poles (the most influential of the West Slavs) represent the Slavic nations.

	22-07-2003 15:32									#55
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Well, I understand the point that Poland was a bump between Russia and Germany indeed but I disagree when it is said that Poland is *just* a bump. Negative. I really disagree. The Poland has had a strong cultural influence on the Eastern Europe reaching from South Estonia to Bessarabia, (?) perhaps the Poland and Sweden would have probably not declined in XVIII century if they would not have attacked each other.

Well, this bump thing is true also - the location between Russia and Germany has not brought happiness to any country, I suppose ;-). When Poland has succeeded qualifying as a bump between those two very powerful countries then just this fact reinforces the importance of Poland.

Size differences of the countries and civs are quite big indeed: China, Russia, India, USA - those are behemoths when compared to any European country with an exception of Germany, perhaps. Well, EU would be not first in either production capability or population in those terms...

	23-07-2003 05:41									#56
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Poland is just a good a civ as the Hittites, who were about the same: an important regional power witha golden age that then went into relative decline, plus Poland porbalby will last longer.

I like the HUssar as a replacement, but it would make more sense to replace Cavalry than Knights. Maybe lower defense to 2, give it 4 moves, or remove the saltpeter requirement for it. As for the Leader, a medeival or reneaissance king would be best. Prague should remain a German city (if it is not yet, the Czechs were part of the Holy Roman empire), not POlish.

	23-07-2003 07:41									#57
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GePap,

Having Hussars replace cavalry would probably be a good idea, though it still isn't completely satisfying. I'd give them a movement of 4 and a slighty increased cost.
My problem is that I think Cavalry comes too early. I'd think that military tradition should come after Nationalism. The Cavalry units look like they are at the earliest Napoleonic-era units. (at least the units look like they do) The time of Hussar (1550-1700) dominance was well before the Napoleonic era. The perfect solution would be if Cavalry and Military Tradition were moved after Nationalism and replaced with new technology that would create a Dragoon unit or something similar. Then, the Hussar could replace the Dragoon.

However, I think that I like the idea of a 2-5-1 Musket Man replacement a little better than the Hussar. There is an abundance of Calvary and Knight UUs, and the Polish infantry was famous for its rate of fire. During the 1550s,on a man to man basis, the Polish Infantry had ten times greater firepower than any other European army.

I'd only include Prague and the other non-Polish cities if there was a pan-Slavic or an Austria-Hungary civ, not in a Polish civ. I went back and clarified that point on my original post.

I think what makes the Poles more significant than the Hitties (duration aside) is the fact that Poand, though it has been conquered and dominated for long periods of time, has retained its distinct culture and language. The Hittite culture was submerged and assimilated, and is overall less distinct when compared to the existing Babylonian civ than a Polish civ (or a Slavic civ)would be vis a vis the German or Russian civs.

Last edited by Wycoff on 23-07-2003 at 21:29

	23-07-2003 09:51									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff Poland wasn't just a speed bumb. As I said before, Poland was a major power in the late middle ages.

When I think of major European powers in the late middle ages the following countries come to mind: England, France, Spain, Holy Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Sweden, and Russia. Depends on what you call "major" I guess.

	23-07-2003 10:19									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Orz The Poland has had a strong cultural influence on the Eastern Europe reaching from South Estonia to Bessarabia,

You have just described the city radius of one or two cities on most CIV world maps.

quote: Originally posted by Orz Size differences of the countries and civs are quite big indeed: China, Russia, India, USA - those are behemoths when compared to any European country with an exception of Germany, perhaps. Well, EU would be not first in either production capability or population in those terms...

On a Civ scale the "behemoth" civs play best and are more realistic. The EU would be awesome if counted as a single entity. Many nationalities in the world would be comparable to the non-player villages that dot the map. I can certainly understand the desire of people to see their own country or nation represented (and it would be satisfying to see Andorra win a game ).

	23-07-2003 13:38									#60
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"You have just described the city radius of one or two cities on most CIV world maps."

he's also just described almost all european civs, egypt, japan, etc.