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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:29
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I wonder whether Firaxis will include "conquest" (scenario) - specific civs.
If yes, that would be great because otherwise certain nations that wouldn't make in "normal" civ3 games could be played.
If not, then I would be very-very curious to see how can Firaxis include a medieval European scenario without Poles and Hungarians, the two most powerful and important kingdoms in Eastern Europe during the middle ages. Who would fight against the ottomans?
Take a look at a medieval European map and you will see what I'm talking about. After the fall of Byzantium, it was these two nations who defended Europe against the turks.
There would be one problem though to include both nations: the special unit. The Hussar (or Huszar, in hungarian) was originally a hungarian unit, who were great horsemen. The huszar was so successful that it made later career in other armies, too (Poland, Austria, etc). But I'm not an expert in military history and I'm sure a proper unit could be find.
Btw, I noticed in the first post of this thread that one of proposed Polish leaders was István (Stephen) Báthory  Did you know that he was hungarian from Transylvania, where he was prince before becoming king of Poland? That made me very pride, because it is my homeland, too.  (and yes, he was a superb leader)
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Inhalaattori
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Tampere, Finland
Jul 2003
time: 07:29
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Take out Sumeria or Babylonia , Dutch, Iroguois, Zulu
Take in Poland, Khmers, Mali, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe
(also Lithuania and Hungary would be nice choices, becouse they had huuuge nations in the middle- Ages)
Finno- Ugrian could nice also, becouse they inhabited once almost hole of the nowaday european Russia. I still dont know if they still existed as a one group 6000 years ago, when Civ starts?
The east Europe is ALWAYS underrated. It annoys me also. But the worst is Africa. There were huge kingdoms and they put Zulus there. Heh.
Countries like England and France are very overrated in western history. Their golden era lasted very short time. In the middle- Ages and before that they really had no meaning for rest of the world.
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mr Rura
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Slubice
Aug 2003
time: 05:29
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BulMaster, if you want, I could write many historical facts, which shows our major role in the history, but give some time to complete them all... For example it is said that the air war of Britain, would be losed by allies without our help, and if that had happend, Germans would win the war... Give me time to complete all facts...
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by BulMaster
Btw how you know about our khan and the byzantine emperor?
 finaly an educated person :P |
I knew about this by reading "A Cartoon History of the World Vol. 3". All 3 volumes, by Larry Gonick, are very entertaining, and, actually, very well written histories. Of course, you don't want to rely on them exclusively for detail, but for a balanced overview of history that lacks sloppy sentimentality or banal nationalism, it's a good place to go. If you don't believe me, check it out.
I know this post is off-topic, but since so many people around here write about history in their posts, and seem to know the history of only their nation of origin, or no reputable history whatsoever, I thought I should mention these books: informative and fun to read.
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Inhalaattori
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Tampere, Finland
Jul 2003
time: 07:29
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Heh. "In the middle- Ages and before that they really had no meaning for rest of the world."
I just meant that these countries achieved their status very lately.
Im not saying that they should be taken out of civ3.
You invented football? Many ancient cultures had similar games. Like aztecs and mayans.
"invented/pioneered industrialism, world trade, football, TV."
Its true. But it would be better if you hadnt invented these. Just artifacts of evil. Maybe you will (in the future) also get recognition to start development that lead to destruction of all life.
"handed the reins of empire over to the USA"
Creating the "Devils playground" is not an achievement to me.
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mr Rura
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Slubice
Aug 2003
time: 05:29
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To show how important role Poland played in the history of Europe, I have written the evidences of our importance. For example - the II WW:
- the code "Enigma" was broken by the Poles [by Rejewski, Rozycki and Zygalski]. The copies of the code were delivered to british and french counterintelligence. This fact had tremendous effect on the war. Since then, allies could forecast all German's actions. Germans didn't know about broking the code until the end of war.
- the guerilla forces in Poland were the biggest in Europe. Only the partisans in Jugoslavia were more important , but they had less difficulty, because of high mountains.
- Poles resisted much more harder than other countries such as France, Greece, Norway, Denmark. Poland was defeated after one-month fighting. To compare: Denmark was defeted after a few hours...
- the most difficult operation of II WW was obviouslly the battle of Monte Cassino. Germans gethered huge forces there, because the great canyon could be crossed only in few places[!!!]. Many allies forces tried to breach the front: Americans, Britons, Frenchmens, Australians, [and probably more nations, I don't remember], but it wasn't done until the attack of Polish 2.nd corps of general Anders.
- The 303-th and 302-nd fighter divisons played a major role in the air battle of Britain. Some historians say [not only Polish historians!], that Germans would win the battle without help of polish pilots. And if they had done that, they would be able to destroy all seaports in England. When the british navy had been destroyed, Germans would have no difficulty to conquer the UK - british land forces were much smaller than the german.
- Poles fought in many other majot battles in Europe: we defended Tobruk [the resinstance of small group of Poles was such unbelivable, that Germans called polish soldiers "the rats of Tobruk"]. It was huge seaport, with tremendous strategic importance. The city of Tobruk was held by very long time by the tiny polish forces. We also taked part in operation Overlord and Market-Garden. And many others too...
Its very probable that the II WW would be won by Germans if the polish nation didn't existed...
Changed your mind? Are we worth including now?
________________________
I checked the word "Bulgaria" in encyclopedia and I was quite impressed - the country of Bulgaria began to exist in 681 year. Over 2 centuries before Poland! However, Poland is more important. Bulgaria was indenpendent only for 6 centuries and it have never been major power in Europe. Poland existed for over 8 centuries, and was a great military power in the XVI century. So it isn't sensible to say that Bulgaria is more imprortant than Poland...
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BulMaster
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In the middle of nowhere!
Oct 2002
time: 05:29
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Well i proposed that we stop this but since your stupid enough to continue here we go, let's see just how great poland was in WWII since it's the only thing you mentioned:
"But the King himself, Bulgarian intellectuals, the Orthodox Church and the general public resisted strongly Hitler's demand that all Bulgarian jews be deportedto the death camps in Poland. Bulgarian jews were saved from the Holocaust and almost all of them regard the King as their saviour.
50,000 Bulgarian Jews survived...."
WOW look how great you are, if you resisted that much how come you exterminated jews?
"Bulgarians are registered on themap as the 1st millenium before the birth of christ" so how long before poland my friend make the maths!
Bulgarians founded 5 states in euro-asia region.
Oh btw it was very hard for me to find what are poland's origins are you german or russian? And as the french call you poland is that weird state that you never know if it's on the map of europe it always appears and disappears.
khan Krum, who was in power from 803 to 814 AD. His main accomplishment was the expansion of Bulgaria’s territory. He incorporated more Slavic tribes and eventually defeated the Byzantine army, nearly taking Constantinople. Under his rule, Bulgaria became an outstanding power not only in the Balkans, but also in all of Eastern and Central Europe. Another major contribution of his was the establishment of Bulgaria’s first written laws. These allowed him to unite Bulgarians and Slavs into a strong, integrated, and centralized state. No khan before him had contributed as much to the consolidation and expansion of the Bulgarian state.
Tzar Simeon, who became the first Tsar. His rule was defined by two main goals: to break away from Byzantine political and religious influence and to turn Bulgaria into a powerful rival of the Byzantine Empire. Obsessed by his goals of domination, Simeon marched against Byzantium and destroyed many of its towns. The numerous wars waged by him turned Bulgaria into the most powerful Slavic state in Europe. In 925 AD, he proclaimed himself Emperor of the Romans and Bulgars. As a highly educated ruler, he became a patron of arts and letters. Under him, the Bulgarian creative spirit drew the best of the cultural heritage of the neighboring Byzantium. This flourishing of Bulgarian culture became known as the Golden Age. In addition, Old Bulgarian was firmly established as a language, contributing to the survival of the nation and the fame of Tsar Simeon, who is rightfully called Bulgaria’s Charles the Great.
Tsar Kaloyan was anxious to negotiate a settlement of the borderline dispute with the Latin emperor Baldwin of Flanders (1204- 1205). However, the Latins' reply was haughty and rude. They said that, as far as they were concerned, Bulgaria was an illegitimate political formation and that its territory, as part of the former Byzantine empire whose heirs-at-law they thought to be, would belong to them by rights. They informed Kaloyan in a sarcastic fashion that their coming was imminent. Kaloyan's plea to Pope Innocent III to bring the crusaders to their senses took no effect at all.
In that situation the Bulgarian ruler, who surely did not like being at the tail-end of events, decided to strike first. In the spring of 1205 a rebellion, inspired by tsar Kaloyan, broke out in Latin Thrace. Only when the Latin army besieged the main city of the region, Adrianople (present-day Edirne), did the crusaders see, in spell-binding amazement, that the fortress walls had Bulgarian standards fixed on top. Surviving Byzantine nobility had to recognize the supremacy of the Bulgarian tsar. Soon after, the Bulgarian army also arrived at the walls of Adrianople. Confident of their invincibility, the knights raided the Bulgarian army on 14 April 1205 and sustained tremendous losses and a defeat. On that day, in the vicinity of Adrianople, emperor Baldwin was taken prisoner and the that day. It marked the end of the reveries of some West European political circles about their enduring presence in the East. For, the Adrianople disaster was a death blow to the infant empire which did, never again, succeed in assuming the role of a primary political power in the European East and which, after a painful agony six decades long, was to disappear completely from the political stage.
Do you want a statement about who created the first CPU? Since bulgarians invented it well you should thanks us for you beeing able to crack the enigma code. Here you go my friend if you want more just ask.
BTW you were founded in 966  Also count the time the word power is mentioned the info is from foreign sites i especialy didn't took info from bg sites so you won't accuse me of using nationalistic litterature what is ecsacly what you are doing. I remain,
Sincealy Yours
Last edited by BulMaster on 14-08-2003 at 16:05
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BulMaster
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In the middle of nowhere!
Oct 2002
time: 05:29
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Don't take me wrong I know how much Poland suffered in WWII thx to Hitler. What you don't know on the other hand is how much we suffered from the Ottman rule and the humiliation after the foundation of the third kingdom. And if you were hit the most by hitler as his first milliraty action, we were hit first by the ottomans and believe it or not they were much more brutal than Hitler.
Another fact from the bulgarian byzantine wars was when the byzantines finaly took over us for 200 years. The army of Czar Saumil was captured 12000 mens ther were all blinded both eyes but for each 99 of them one was blinded by only one eye so they lead the others and return to the Czar.
The April Uprising with whith which all the world turned it's eyes to bulgaria is considered among the brutalest events in the end of the 19th century. Journalist from all over the world came to see what the ottomans did to us. Villages and towns were wiped out of the map, thousands womem and old ppl, and children brutally killed, raped and disgraced. You might during the centuries beeing under austro-hungarian and russian rule but at least you were a civilized country under the rule of a civilizied country, we on the other hand were a civilized country under a brutal rule and inhuman rule, which make us to be envied because after 5 centuries of tortures we remained what we are and were never with broken spirit.
Kind regards
Proudly rise the Balkan peaks,
At their feet Blue Danube flows;
Over Thrace the sun is shining,
Pirin looms in purple glow.
Dear native land,
you are paradise on earth,
your beauty and your charm,
ah, they never end.
PS: Change your signature
Last edited by BulMaster on 14-08-2003 at 16:30
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Vince278
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quote:
Originally posted by mr Rura
To show how important role Poland played in the history of Europe, I have written the evidences of our importance. For example - the II WW:
- the code "Enigma" was broken by the Poles [by Rejewski, Rozycki and Zygalski]. The copies of the code were delivered to british and french counterintelligence. This fact had tremendous effect on the war. Since then, allies could forecast all German's actions. Germans didn't know about broking the code until the end of war.
- the guerilla forces in Poland were the biggest in Europe. Only the partisans in Jugoslavia were more important , but they had less difficulty, because of high mountains.
- Poles resisted much more harder than other countries such as France, Greece, Norway, Denmark. Poland was defeated after one-month fighting. To compare: Denmark was defeted after a few hours...
- the most difficult operation of II WW was obviouslly the battle of Monte Cassino. Germans gethered huge forces there, because the great canyon could be crossed only in few places[!!!]. Many allies forces tried to breach the front: Americans, Britons, Frenchmens, Australians, [and probably more nations, I don't remember], but it wasn't done until the attack of Polish 2.nd corps of general Anders.
- The 303-th and 302-nd fighter divisons played a major role in the air battle of Britain. Some historians say [not only Polish historians!], that Germans would win the battle without help of polish pilots. And if they had done that, they would be able to destroy all seaports in England. When the british navy had been destroyed, Germans would have no difficulty to conquer the UK - british land forces were much smaller than the german.
- Poles fought in many other majot battles in Europe: we defended Tobruk [the resinstance of small group of Poles was such unbelivable, that Germans called polish soldiers "the rats of Tobruk"]. It was huge seaport, with tremendous strategic importance. The city of Tobruk was held by very long time by the tiny polish forces. We also taked part in operation Overlord and Market-Garden. And many others too...
Its very probable that the II WW would be won by Germans if the polish nation didn't existed...
Changed your mind? Are we worth including now?
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Poles were a part of the team in WWII, quite far from being the be-all and end-all. The Eniga effort involved thousands, most British Navy, Air Force, and Intelligence. Other nationalities, like some Americans and Europeans, were heavily involved.
Overstating one's contributions is as bad as understating them. Many Polish individuals made great contributions during the war but Poland as a nation was severely victimized. Using WWII as an argument on including Poland in Civ is not a good idea. 
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:29
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hi ,
Well i proposed that we stop this but since your stupid enough to continue here we go, let's see just how great poland was in WWII since it's the only thing you mentioned:
"But the King himself, Bulgarian intellectuals, the Orthodox Church and the general public resisted strongly Hitler's demand that all Bulgarian jews be deportedto the death camps in Poland. Bulgarian jews were saved from the Holocaust and almost all of them regard the King as their saviour.
50,000 Bulgarian Jews survived...."
*cough* , and this time it aint funny anymore , where the heck do those stupid high numbers from , ...... 
someone forgot to say how many where killed , or to mention about the roaming death batt's on the eastern front , ..... from bulgaria , .....
please leave all this bogus WWII crap out of a CIV III gamethread , ......
have a nice day
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08-08-2003 17:34
PLEASE
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