13-07-2003 03:44									#1
	Nightmare Scenario: Over a thousand dead US soldiers and a bill of around $125bn... Enter the AD-FREE zone

Tommy Franks said the other day that the price for the US f*cking up their handling of Iraq will be a US military presence of 2-4 years at a cost of $3.9bn a month...

Now, assuming he is not talking out of his arse - which is a major assumption considering what a useless waste of space he has been so far - you're looking at over a thousand dead soldiers on the current bleed rate of one US soldier a day...

Personally I predict it is going to get worse as the attacks have become far more sophisticated and organised lately, so I'm thinking that 1,000+ dead US soldiers might even be a conservative estimate.

Not bad considering Saddam didn't even seem to have any WMD in the first place or that as Rummy has said they may even have been looted by the very fanatics that weren't supposed to get them in the first place! Not to mention the fact that Iraq seems to be about to lurch from a secular state into a fundamental one, or that Iraq's nuclear scientists seem to have fled to Iran who, wait for it, has an even more advanced nuclear programme than the Iraqis...

I feel an Oliver Hardy quote coming on...

Discuss...

	13-07-2003 03:46									#2
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I have another for you.
3000 civilians dead.

	13-07-2003 03:59									#3
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I have another for you. 3000 civilians dead.

Actually I think it's 5000+ and counting if you mean the Iraqi civilians that have been killed as a direct result of the US' bungled attempt at 'regime change'...

	13-07-2003 04:01									#4
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Oh you would just love that MOBIUS

Maybe you can **** as the death count numbers come in.

	13-07-2003 04:05									#5
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I think the number of (confirmed) dead soldiers is over 9,000, as my previous signature stated.

The civilian dead is about 3000-4000. This climbs into the tens of thousands if you consider that you ****ing morons messed up the hospitals, laura norder and electricity.

Edit - next time you bypass the censor, you'll get a week off.

Last edited by MichaeltheGreat on 13-07-2003 at 04:45

	13-07-2003 04:07									#6
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I fail to see how this is a nightmare scenario.

	13-07-2003 04:08									#7
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How did we mess up Iraq? We did defeat the Saddam regime in less than 3 weeks. We have rebuilt a new Iraqi police force from scratch. We have begun rebuilding a new Iraqi military from scratch. We are rebuilding the economic infrastructure. And there is a new governing council that is the beginnings of a new government by the Iraqis, for the Iraqis and from the Iraqis.

All in all, looks like we are making slow progress.

The attacks are to be expected. They are not that serious. They are just a few disgruntled Baathist. It will go away in 1-2 years.

	13-07-2003 04:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat It will go away in 1-2 years.

Assuming the US leaves in 1-2 years...

	13-07-2003 04:15									#9
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The attacks will probably fade away, there is no doubt in that I agree.

quote: We did defeat the Saddam regime in less than 3 weeks.

So? Nothing to do with the post-war mismanagement.

quote: We have rebuilt a new Iraqi police force from scratch.

Which is still afraid to patrol the streets.

quote: We have begun rebuilding a new Iraqi military from scratch.

Which will help you fuck off earlier?

quote: We are rebuilding the economic infrastructure.

How? By appointing and replacing hordes of ineffectual administrators? By failing to get water, electricity and food in, making Iraq dependant on aid? By encouraging people to go back to work, while restricting their movements, banning large swathes of professionals and sticking ****ing great bombs in the infrastructure?
The only part of the economy that is starting to get back on its feet is the oil sector. But I don't want to get into a debate about the motives behind this, if there are any.

	13-07-2003 04:18									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Assuming the US leaves in 1-2 years...

And why wouldn't we?

	13-07-2003 04:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil Which is still afraid to patrol the streets.

That will change.

quote: The only part of the economy that is starting to get back on its feet is the oil sector. But I don't want to get into a debate about the motives behind this, if there are any.

That is a vital goal. With oil, Iraq will be able to buy what it needs. The oil is for the Iraqi people, you know!

I got to ask everybody: why the pessimism? Do you want a "nightmare"? Do you want a quagmire with lots of dead US soldiers?

	13-07-2003 04:36									#12
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quote: And why wouldn't we?

Assuming the Iraqis dont turn up the heat such that the US will leave (and good luck to them), the US will stay for influence, oil, and its self-admitted desire to garrison an Arab state (what it said about saudi arabia after Gulf War I).

Even if the US's only desire is the creation of a viable (most likely puppet but hey) state, a proposition I seriously doubt, then it would take a number of years as stabilisation, not to mention tech, infrastructure and bureaucratic support, of course, someone would need to fill the power vacuum until the forces of a new Iraqi state can take over. If that doesnt happen, then it is most likely that Iraq would be administered by other Arabs, the UN (the best option of all imo), or rival warlords until the UN or Saudi intervenes.

quote: The oil is for the Iraqi people, you know!

Who told you that? Bush??

quote: Do you want a quagmire with lots of dead US soldiers?

Nope, but I dont want a sovereign nation under foreign occupation. If the Iraqis dont want them, and that is the way it is looking (even the pro US voices are giving them 18-24 months before they turn anti), and the USA doesnt leave on their request (which should be the peoples perogative), then they can expect to be shot at, blown up, or murdered. While I dont particularly like that, I understand that, and they have more justification in kicking out foreign troops than the US has in staying (or even being there).

	13-07-2003 04:37									#13
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quote: That will change.

Yes but the point you were making was that it was a good and useful thing that was set up. Only when the situation dies down (which may take a long while) will the police force be useful. I contend that the Americans aren't helping the unstability.

quote: That is a vital goal. With oil, Iraq will be able to buy what it needs. The oil is for the Iraqi people, you know!

The oil money will help the Iraqi people buy big **** infrastructure projects, which will probably be mismanaged. Besides how is it going to help getting the country back in order?

quote: I got to ask everybody: why the pessimism? Do you want a "nightmare"? Do you want a quagmire with lots of dead US soldiers

Personally I think you should pay in blood for what you've done. Besides that, exhorting people to be optimistic doesn't change the fact that the post-war running of the country is messed up. Whining about pessimissm, while holding dear to the US Governments delusional 'faith' does not magically make things better. Especially not for ordinary Iraqis.

	13-07-2003 04:40									#14
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Evil Knevil:

Did you read that study a while back that said that states with oil tend to be more fcuked up for the people on the ground than non-oil states? I'll try to find a link

	13-07-2003 04:55									#15
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quote: Originally posted by elijah If the Iraqis dont want them, and that is the way it is looking

But the vast majority of Iraqis do want us there. US soldiers in Iraq have said that most Iraqis they talk to are glad to see them. It is only an incredibly small minority of Saddam loyalist that are trying to cause trouble because they have nothing better to do.

	13-07-2003 04:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil Personally I think you should pay in blood for what you've done.

I hope you are not an American. If you are, then you are a traitor for that kind of comment.

	13-07-2003 04:58									#17
	Re: Nightmare Scenario: Over a thousand dead US soldiers and a bill of around $125bn... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Tommy Franks said the other day that the price for the US f*cking up their handling of Iraq will be a US military presence of 2-4 years at a cost of $3.9bn a month...

That's nice. I read the transcript and unfortunately for you, Franks didn't say that. But then again, what's reality or honesty when you can gently paraphrase and spin what someone says to get the result you'd like to work with?

quote: Now, assuming he is not talking out of his arse - which is a major assumption considering what a useless waste of space he has been so far - you're looking at over a thousand dead soldiers on the current bleed rate of one US soldier a day...

(a) He took the numbers and forces he was given, and knocked over Afghanistan while you whiners were talking out your arses about the Soviets, Vietnam, and how Afghanistan was going to swallow the US whole.

(b) He took the numbers and forces he was given, and knocked over main resistance in Iraq in a month, while the leftist whiners were talking months to years of heavy fighting and half a million civilian dead.

So looks like Franks isn't the useless waste of space - the leftist whiners seem do be.

The current "bleed rate" and the rate of funds being spent will both go down, not up, with transition to an Iraqi provisional government and Iraqi primary security. Franks addressed nothing more than an ongoing role for US occupying forces, not the extent or monthly cost of that role, let alone the suggestion that US losses, expenditures and activities would be conveniently static.

But don't let little details like reality and actual quotes get in the way.

quote: Personally I predict it is going to get worse as the attacks have become far more sophisticated and organised lately, so I'm thinking that 1,000+ dead US soldiers might even be a conservative estimate.

There has been little to no increase in either the sophistication or success level of those attacks that have been successful. In fact, the more the Iraqis try to coordinate and organize, the more screwed they are - where they (and all guerilla forces) are most easily successful is in relatively spontaneous, opportunistic attacks with no planning or coordination, by individuals to two-three man teams.

quote: Not bad considering Saddam didn't even seem to have any WMD in the first place or that as Rummy has said they may even have been looted by the very fanatics that weren't supposed to get them in the first place! Not to mention the fact that Iraq seems to be about to lurch from a secular state into a fundamental one, or that Iraq's nuclear scientists seem to have fled to Iran who, wait for it, has an even more advanced nuclear programme than the Iraqis...

Nice speculation.

quote: I feel an Oliver Hardy quote coming on... Discuss...

This troll isn't at the level of Laurel and Hardy.

	13-07-2003 05:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat I hope you are not an American. If you are, then you are a traitor for that kind of comment.

Ooh, not supporting war criminals is treason now?

	13-07-2003 05:07									#19
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Michael, are you busy?
I have my rope, but I could use some help.

	13-07-2003 05:11									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis Ooh, not supporting war criminals is treason now?

First, noone is a war criminal. The war in Iraq was just.

Second, Odin specifically wished americans dead. That is what is treason if he is a US citizen. There is a huge difference between criticizing or not supporting your government and wishing your own soldiers to be killed. The first is ok, the second is not!

	13-07-2003 05:12									#21
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It's not a nightmare scenario, but it sure isn't turning out like Bush said it would. It will get worse too. It's obvious that the administration can't handle it, and they really don't have any ideas that will help them.

	13-07-2003 05:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat First, noone is a war criminal. The war in Iraq was just.

Just Just in whose eyes? A preemptive war is never just, especially now that the threat that was claimed proved to be nothing but Generalissimo Bush's lies. If any country needs regime change, it's this one.

quote: Second, Odin specifically wished americans dead. That is what is treason if he is a US citizen. There is a huge difference between criticizing or not supporting your government and wishing your own soldiers to be killed. The first is ok, the second is not!

Treason requires action, or do you want to start rooting out and punishing thought crime?

	13-07-2003 05:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Michael, are you busy? I have my rope, but I could use some help.

I was thinking a charter transport to Cuba or Iraq might be better - why mess up a good rope?

	13-07-2003 05:23									#24
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Good point. Let's do the Iraq trip.
Cuba's going to be busting at the seams.

	13-07-2003 05:26									#25
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You guys are yellow.

	13-07-2003 05:28									#26
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So you'd rather have the rope than a nice charter flight?

	13-07-2003 05:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So you'd rather have the rope than a nice charter flight?

You guys are all talk.

	13-07-2003 05:37									#28
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quote: I feel an Oliver Hardy quote coming on...

Here is another fine...

quote: I hope you are not an American. If you are, then you are a traitor for that kind of comment.

Oh my god, here I am thinking McCarthey was dead already... Glad I'm not American...

	13-07-2003 05:37									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis Just Just in whose eyes?

I think the thousands of Iraqis that were beaten, tortured, maimed by Saddam's henchmen on a daily basis, would consider it a just intervention. Wouldn't you if you could now live free from Saddam's barbarism?

quote: A preemptive war is never just, especially now that the threat that was claimed proved to be nothing but Generalissimo Bush's lies.

Attacked Iran.
Invaded Koweit.
Used chemical warfare on Iran.
Used chemical warfare on civilian population.
Tried to build nuclear weapons.
Tried to build large stockpile of chemical wepons.
Tried to build large stockpile of biological wepons.

That is not a threat to you? Would the world be better off with that kind of person still around?

Saddam was an evil bastard! I sure don't mind seeing his regime gone. And again, I bet you there are lots of Iraqis that feel the same way.

The bottom line is that we got rid of an evil, despotic regime that tortured and murdered millions of innocent people. We did a good deed.

quote: Treason requires action, or do you want to start rooting out and punishing thought crime?

I was not speaking of his actions. I don't know his actions. But the words were treasonous in nature.

	13-07-2003 05:37									#30
	Put an end to popups!

You guys have to make up for you real lives by threatening people who can't slap you upside your heads.