 |
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
|
|
facts... haha... i already dared Boris to go into the Polo Grounds and Bushwick saying that he is a homosexual and asking people what they thought of homosexuality... apparently, even he does not have enough trust in the 'facts' to do that survey.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Ben Kenobi
|
 |
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:29
|
|
Fez:
It's tough to prove something when you are working against an argument that also fails to prove anything.
quote:
whether you like it or not, the masses are "homophobic"
|
Is that not AS's challenge?
Boris' statistics fail to prove anything, other than that the young seem to support equal rights for both heterosexuals and homosexuals, on human rights issues.
The study shows astonishingly low support for the homosexual lifestyle among the young, when compared with the rate of churchgoers.
So my question is we need to define what constitutes a homophobe. Last I checked, anyone who opposes the gay lifestyle counts as a homophobe, so that is the only statistic that counts.
So poll the masses, everyone, not just the young, and see whether AS' claim proves true.
Finally, my last statement stands, that if one were to poll with a different question, you would get different results. The only question is how different the results would be, and this we cannot tell until we do another poll.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
PLATO
|
 |
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Please, back up your statement Plato. What constitutes a religious conservative? Where has Robertson strayed from the line? Christianity is much less about 'tolerance' of lifestyles than it is about tolerance of persons. In fact, Christianity by definition is intolerant towards lifestyles by insisting that the Christian way is the best. |
A religious conservative is one who through his/her actions witnesses to others through actions, acts upon the principle of "Judge not lest ye be judged" and asks "forgiveness for my trespasses as I forgive others their theirs". Perhaps in this case it is better to sate what a religious conservative is not...It is not one who actively prays for ones death (praying for one's soul and praying for God's will to be done is conservative). Take a look at the list of quotes that Boris posted. These are not the statements of a religious conservative...they are the statements of a zealous, self righteous person with a personal agenda.
Furthermore, Christianity is intolerent, but Christians should be tolerent. In order to get the message across we must support that which is right while understanding the human condition and calling for all to come to the cross for redemtion. Nowhere should we step out and say "You are condemed for your actions", but rather "Brother, come to the cross for your actions lead to unhappiness and I will be happy to show you the way through Christ".
Pat Robinson could learn much by simply learning about the religion he says he supports. To me he is not a Christian, but only a zealot. I shall pray for him to see the light, but I certainly will not pray for his death.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
 |
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
facts... haha... i already dared Boris to go into the Polo Grounds and Bushwick saying that he is a homosexual and asking people what they thought of homosexuality... apparently, even he does not have enough trust in the 'facts' to do that survey. |
I believe I silenced you on this point before by pointing out that I could be killed just for being white, well-dressed or breathing in the areas you're thinking about, which doesn't speak well of their attitudes in general, does it?
Besides, I've been to Bushwick several times, as my roommate teaches there. It's not so bad, though I wouldn't hang around at night. Have you ever been to Bushwick, Albert?
You still don't seem to realize that you're talking about a decidedly small minority of the city's population here. Gays are living in Harlem, Washington Heights, Jackson Heights, etc., openly and unmolested. Nobody really has a problem with it. Sure, there are the fringe homophobes who will start ****, but they certainly aren't the norm. One day you'll leave home, son, and realize there's a world of difference between your few blocks and everywhere else. 
Last edited by Boris Godunov on 16-07-2003 at 20:04
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
|
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Please, back up your statement Plato. What constitutes a religious conservative? Where has Robertson strayed from the line? Christianity is much less about 'tolerance' of lifestyles than it is about tolerance of persons. In fact, Christianity by definition is intolerant towards lifestyles by insisting that the Christian way is the best. |
Are you quite serious? Do you think the views expressed by Robertson really represent mainstream Christianity? I don't, because I like to believe Christians are not, by and large, such hateful lunatics.
Did you see the choice quotes from Robertson? Tell me, do these sound like they belong in mainstream Christian thought?
"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."
--The 700 Club, January 14, 1991
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one of the core principals of Judeo-Christian philosophy is (or should be) "The Golden Rule." It's certainly a cornerstone of my personal philosophy. So how is being mean and nasty to non-Evangelicals (we're not talking non-Christians here! He means anyone who doesn't believe his particular Christian doctrine!) and calling them "the spirit of the Antichrist" representative of mainstream Christianity?
"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."
--The 700 Club, January 18, 1995
Would you say it's a proper and mainstream Christian stance to accuse a group of people of wanting to do such things, in the absence of their ever having done so or professed to wanting to do so? This is the line Robertson should be holding? Is it a Christian virtue to cast such hateful and false stereotypes?
I'll also point you to his justification of the Biblical massacres of innocent women and children on the part of the Israelites. Now, do you think he's correct, that's okay to slaughter thousands of women and children to prevent them from breeding new generations of potential enemies? Yes or No? If yes, tell me what atrocity you wouldn't commit in the name of God, please. If no, then please explain how Robertson can still be said to express a viewpoint that isn't, frankly, murderous.
If Robertson's views are the mainstream line of Christian conservatives, then I believe anyone is justified in considering such people dangerous fanatics little different than Al-Queda.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
|
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Boris:
You want a refutation? |
Refutation of what? The poll? Fine, show me a countervailing poll among American teens that shows something different. Otherwise, I still await your supposed "refutation."
quote:
Only? How many of these young people attend church regularly? This figure is close to double that number among young people in the US. |
Huh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Read what was said again:
"Only 39 percent of graduates said 'gay lifestyles are morally wrong.'"
That means 61% do not think the 'gay lifestyle' is morally wrong. So much for the homophobic masses. What difference does it make how many go to church? Should only the opinion of churchgoers be counted when guaging national sentiment? Well, your friend Robertson might agree with that, since he plainly feels only Evangelical Christians matter.
quote:
Secondly, people get more conservative as they grow older. You will see the numbers skew against you if you take a sample of this population later on. |
While somewhat true, the fact remains indisputable that tolerance and acceptance of homosexuals has increased dramatically in the U.S. over the past few decades, especially within the last ten years. Also, as attitudes towards other minority groups in the past have shown, such values do not tend to change in people as they grow older, even if they become more conservative in other regards. The oldest generations are still vastly the most socially conservative. The current middle ones, now adults, have not become remotely as socially conservative. They have maintained, by and large, attitudes of tolerance.
quote:
So, what? Heterosexuals can abuse children as well. I can see this being a human rights concern. |
What does it have to do with child abuse? The Scouts exclude gays on moral opposition to homosexuality, and a sizeable majority of young people are opposed to that attitude. Ergo, they don't think there's something immoral about a homosexual that warrants them being excluded from such positions. I have to wonder why you brought up abuse?
quote:
How many have heard a counterargument against hate-crimes legislation? Hands up please. They will favour this on the grounds of human rights, not special rights for homosexuals. |
Arguments from right wingers against such legislation invariably employ the red herring that is granting "special rights" to homosexuals. Considering not one piece of such legislation applies only to gays, put rather applies to everyone, such claims are patent nonsense.
quote:
Again, how many have heard an effective counterargument against the human rights position? |
Effective or sensible? Too different things. Once again, people claim "special rights" for gays, when, in fact, such rules apply to everyone, not just gays.
quote:
Translate for me Boris, what does this question ask?
I've always wanted to use this quote,
"There are lies, damn lies and statistics." 
By rewording the poll questions, I could get very different results. |
Ah yes, the "those poll numbers conflict with my worldview, ergo I will claim they asked the wrong questions" argument. Fanciful.
I'd ask you know to put your money where your mouth is and show nationwide polls that show most people oppose homosexuality. You'll note that AS claimed the "masses" were "homophobic." I think the two sources I posted (did you read the link to the 2001 Gallup poll?) adequatedly support my position that such an assertion is patently untrue. Most people in the U.S. are tolerant of homosexuality. I'll quote the most significant poll question from that:
"52 percent believe homosexuality is an acceptable "alternative lifestyle."
What does this mean? A majority of Americans, in random sample, believe there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. And that's from 2 years ago, so the numbers have gone up since then (especially as the oldest, most conservative generations die off). In a recent poll, Americans were split 48-47 on the issue of legalizing gay marriage! Now compare all of these to polls from years and years ago, and the trend is clear: By and large, Americans are becoming more accepting of gays. It's the way it is, and crying foul because you think the questions are loaded is just a silly diversionary tactic.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
|
|
yes, obi-wan, "homophobe" means someone who doesn't like the gay lifestyle... i dont think they should be called homophobic (thats why i put it in quotations) because homophobic means fear of gays and people aren't afraid of gays like claustrophobic people are afraid of small spaces.. (ie- gay guy approaches... i'm hyper-ventilating )
K-Man:
quote:
well, in that specific region, AS, yes, they are very homophobic. But we all assumed you were talking about the US as a whole. And, as a fact, the US as a whole isnt that homophobic |
i was trying to say the lower middle class and ethnic minorities is very "homophobic".
Boris:
quote:
I believe I silenced you on this point before by pointing out that I could be killed just for being white, well-dressed or breathing in the areas you're thinking about, which doesn't speak well of their attitudes in general, does it? |
i dont see how that silences me... what does you being white, well-dressed, or breathing have to do with their attitudes towards homosexuals?
quote:
Have you ever been to Bushwick, Albert? |
i've been to worse 
quote:
What does this mean? A majority of Americans, in random sample, believe there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. And that's from 2 years ago, so the numbers have gone up since then (especially as the oldest, most conservative generations die off). |
a majority? but where? there's something about polls that got to be kept in mind... trailer trash and people in the barrios and the inner city are never polled... any poll results is skewed by this lack of poorer people.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
|
|
yeah that's Sava... the champion of the proletariat....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
|
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:29
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
yes, obi-wan, "homophobe" means someone who doesn't like the gay lifestyle... i dont think they should be called homophobic (thats why i put it in quotations) because homophobic means fear of gays and people aren't afraid of gays like claustrophobic people are afraid of small spaces.. (ie- gay guy approaches... i'm hyper-ventilating ) |
"Phobic" is not confined to "fear" even in psychology. Being phobic of something can also just denote an irrational mistrust, dislike or hatred. "Homophobe" is certainly, as far as I can see, the most apt label for people who oppose equal and fair treatment of homosexuals.
quote:
i was trying to say the lower middle class and ethnic minorities is very "homophobic". |
Moreso than wealthier, more educated whites? Certainly. But changing in a positive direction? Absolutely. The last significant survey of attitudes among African-Americans towards gays did show a large amount of mistrust and hatred on the part of Black men towards gays. However, this survey was conducted in 1995. It would be interesting to see how attitudes have changed since then, since they have changed in all other aspects of society in America. There's even a famous black gay rapper emerging now.
quote:
i dont see how that silences me... what does you being white, well-dressed, or breathing have to do with their attitudes towards homosexuals? |
That wasn't the point, the point was that the areas you mention are rife with crime and other problems. I could get into serious trouble being there for any of the above things, before anyone ever learned I was homosexual. This demonstrates that the attitudes in such areas aren't to be taken as any serious measure of common attitudes. They are extreme.
quote:
i've been to worse |
But you haven't been to Bushwick, and I have, ergo you speak from ignorance. You make the assumption all urban minority neighborhoods are as derelict and intolerant as yours. They certainly are not, and I have the experience to prove it that you don't. The gay population in Harlem is burgeoning, right alongside a black population that continues to experience a neighborhood cultural revitalization.
quote:
a majority? but where? there's something about polls that got to be kept in mind... trailer trash and people in the barrios and the inner city are never polled... any poll results is skewed by this lack of poorer people. |
First, random sample polls will reach anyone with a phone. Second, considering urban centers have been at the forefront of adopting gay civil rights initiatives by huge margins, that leaves us with two conclusions: Either you're (unsubstantiated) assertion that city minorities are hugely anti-gay are false, or that those "masses" not only do not participate in polls, but do not vote. I'm certainly willing to believe the later, but then Sava's indelicate point is valid. If they don't participate, their point of view doesn't matter a bit.
It's funny how Falwell, Robertson and the like have carried on for years in a similar fashion about the "silent majority." They claimed there was an unspoken multitude who, for some reason, just weren't being heard who would suddenly rise up and overturn socially progressive legislation. Considering they've been predicting this uprising for over 20 years, and in the meantime the country has moved inexorably towards more progress civil rights laws and attitudes of tolerance and social progressivism, I'd have to say their claim is just wishful thinking.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Guynemer
|
|
Resolved: Pat Robertson is a ****ing jackass.
Anyone opposed?
.....
So why all the bickering?
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
|
|
quote:
There's even a famous black gay rapper emerging now. |
who? where do you come up with this?
one thing though that i'm questioning is exactly how homophobic do you think i'm claiming people are... i'm not saying the average person is going to want to beat the **** out of you for being gay... or even that he would do it if your flirted with him... i am saying that most americans are slightly bothered (not quite the word but you know what i mean... they feel weird) by being around gay people... plenty of people get over this weirdness by spewing jokes about gays (kind of like whats on Will & Grace for example... making fun of gay people kind of so they won't be so weird to be around). i really doubt that any statistics or whatever disproves this and i think you probably agree that the attitude of the common person, in the city or not, is that they are kind of weirded out by gay people even if they are willing to let gays have most rights except for marriage.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Albert Speer
|
|
Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
|
|
Guy:
quote:
Resolved: Pat Robertson is a ****ing jackass.
Anyone opposed? |
despite his tendency for intolerance and to be extreme, his over-all Christian message is hardly something of a jackass... i think people can learn a lot from Robertson, Falwell, etc. and their lesser known Christian, muslim or NoI counterparts. sure they are prone to say extreme **** but if you ignore that, you got a message of live a clean life and lift yourself up through faith
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:29.
Apolyton Time is 00:29. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
16-07-2003 10:55
|