18-07-2003 14:34									#31
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The thing is that RP seems to be accepting a position of if we win, they win. That is a powerful thing to pass up on.

I chatted with BigFree briefly, to let him and RP know that things were going well here. It might effect their planning and their handeling of the turn. He asked me specifically if I thought that 'joint' winning was a possible scenario. I said yes, because I have done it myself before.

I may be imagining things, but I see a great deal of potential here.

We can further our position dramatically by picking up a greatful civ who accepts thier place in the game and pledges us their support.

We can heal over some of the wounds of the game on the community. If we and RP can come to such an arrangement, then we will all have grown beyond ourselves and will be better for it, IMHO.

I hope I am not getting too carried away by the moment, the hour (and the beer I started cracking) but think of England and Scotland. After extensive strife and conflict, they were joined and together created the greatest empire ever known on Earth. That is the sort of opportunity that drops in your lap in MP when Civ A identifies with Civ B and pledges thier supprt to see that Civ B wins. Technically, Civ B alone wins. Practically, Civ A thinks of themselves as having won as well.

Just, don't ever pass an act that takes away their kilts.

	18-07-2003 14:48									#32
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I don't know. Part of me thinks RP is telling us what we want to hear. They know we have a weakness and that is we are a bit naive and want to be the good guys. See: Immortal Beloved.

Grima Wormtongue and his band of merry men tricked one civ into attacking us, is this any different? How will we know until its too late.

	18-07-2003 14:56									#33
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Sticking with our original plan is a relatively clear-cut thing. We know we fight RP, and expect to have to deal with at least one of ND and GoW to keep our territory. Since we expect trouble, we are prepared for it. The RP plan on the other hand opens up a whole new can of worms. RP having been working for days on ways to get out of this as well as they can, and judging by past experience, things are never what they seem. The opportunities to be screwed over are too great (we have only spent a fraction of the time considering the RP proposal, compared to what they have spent developing plans).

Go with the sure thing, even if the rewards are low, rather than the risky, possibly higher gain venture.

And as I recall, there were good reasons why we didn't want to stage an invasion of ND.

	18-07-2003 14:58									#34
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Well, I think Aesons point is valid, that if they want to beat us, they have to beat us on our own continent. It would not make sense first to invite us to their continent, thus adding to its devastation, and then draw a plot with the other two civs to expel us from it. We wouldn't have lost anything (far from a couple of soon to be obsolete units), and they wouldn't have gained anything.

I don't think they are 100% honest. But with a good hold on Bob and GoW and ND being extinct, we are in such a position of strength, that even an alliance of RP with Lego couldn't endanger us.

And I share the opinion, that I don't like RP one bit (and especially not their leader), but if I had a choice to trust either RP or GoW, it would be RP hands down.

	18-07-2003 14:59									#35
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I fear that we are slouching towards Togas, dealing with both sides to get the better deal. Both groups are going to feel horribly betrayed by us and let us know. People that play both sides tend to get burned, like Togas in this case, and I have some concerns.

	18-07-2003 15:06									#36
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I don't think RP are in a plot with the other civs, I think they are in a plot with themselves to get us to do their fighting, and let them end up with more territory on Bob than they have at the moment, with us doing the hard work for them. We don't lose anything except a few units (well, half our army), but RP stand to gain a lot and become a serious power (they already have the potential to be once they finish settling and developing their territory). As long as they don't have to spend too much effort in the war, they come out ahead of everyone else.

And as sleepy says (and I mentioned before) we come off looking very bad in this, and not remotely honourable.

	18-07-2003 15:09									#37
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Granted, sleepy. However, we are not playing both sides.

The fact is, there would be little debate if GoW and ND accepted simple facts. How they could possibly expect a civ to help them wipe out another and gain no permanent land is simply... ludicrous, and does not bode well at all for that 'alliance'. They trashed it themselves, right there and then today and a few days ago in chat.

RP is more reliable because they are more practical. They recognise realities, it seems. If we can keep them in the position of needing us for long enough, then they will need us forever. At a certain point, if we do not abuse them, they will not look for options any longer.

	18-07-2003 15:11									#38
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How are we dishonourable by accepting the pledge of a third civ to support us in return for protection?

We are bound by no alliances. We are breaking nothing.

Where is honour compromised? Show me, and I will recant.

	18-07-2003 15:12									#39
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We haven't agreed to anything. The proposal from GoW and ND is rather insulting. We didn't initiate the proposals, just listened to them so far. We aren't bound to agree with them, especially since what they are offering is worthless.

If anything, ND and GoW are making the mistakes Lux, Vox, and seemingly RP have made... being too greedy. ND and GoW want 450 tiles each, while we are stuck with 200... and they want us to help them get it? Each civ is going to go with what is going to help them the most. Right now RP has a choice of us helping, or them being destroyed. As long as we can keep RP thinking they gain more with us than with them, they'll stay with us.

RP is willing to let us onto the continent without a fight... how would getting onto the continent with a fight be a better idea? ND and GoW aren't going to go for it in either case it seems. At least this way we have the potential for a friend, even if it's not guaranteed (and RP ).

	18-07-2003 15:16									#40
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Bah, I keep typing things as fast as I can and each time my post is greeted by NYE saying the same thing right before me...

	18-07-2003 15:17									#41
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Hmmm... do you think GoW will scream loud enough when/if they see us in the way... to say "NAP"? That would break the agreement right?

	18-07-2003 15:18									#42
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I keep waffling.

I just read the three way chat and it pissed me off. Right, we're going to go along with that one. do their dirty work, run some interference and then get nothing for it. hmm. what fools.



What is our exit strategy for this war?

do we go until ND is destroyed?
do we go until both ND and GoW are destroyed?
How do we divide the continent then?
How do we make ourselves secure from RP in the future?
How do we trust someone that already tried to destroy us?

	18-07-2003 15:20									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Hmmm... do you think GoW will scream loud enough when/if they see us in the way... to say "NAP"? That would break the agreement right?

ooooh good point. we signed the double super secret NAP. Is it void on publication-I'm not sure, but you could say that would violate its spirit (har har)

	18-07-2003 15:22									#44
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Yes, that would be a breech of the NAP, and one I don't think they will fall into.

I'm not sure what they will make of our protecting RP lands by accepting cities for our own. I would expect direct attack if they intended malice. Bilbao would be a very good test of that. Not much ventured. Very little lost or gained by either side.

	18-07-2003 15:22									#45
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I won't rule out the possibility of some kind of elaborate deception, but put yourself in RP's place. You have two civs that are both average in military power relative to you attacking you at once. Both of them have powerful UUs, one (Riders) generally considered to be among the best in the game and the other about as good (although better in SP than in MP). Your UU is several techs away. Both foes are going to be in GAs. You aren't. What do you do?

If you don't mind betting it all to win, waiting to see whether one enemy turns on the other is certainly an option. But that's what you're doing: betting everything. Because if RP's front lines collapse, there would be almost no time for us to save them before Riders and Ansars can gobble up most of the rest of their cities even if we would be willing to get in essentially a one-on-two war to help them.

Or you can ally with the strongest civ in the game. You don't win yourself, but you are on the winning side and, perhaps even more importantly, you make sure the civs that attacked and (in GoW's case) betrayed you don't win.

Yes, there's the risk of the third option: ally with the strongest civ and plan on betraying them later. But we have far more to gain siding with RP than we do trying to gain a mere tiny, almost completely corrupt toehold on Bob attacking RP, and I view the danger of a GoW/ND alliance turning on us as being about as great as the risk of RP doublecrossing us. No option is completely safe, but with higher rewards and not particularly higher risks, I view siding with RP as the better bet.

	18-07-2003 15:28									#46
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re division of Bob.

RP North and West of the mountains remain RP, to be supplemented by ND lands.

Bob South and East of the mountains go to the Storm and let the winds howl.

The area North of ND, a commerce camp. 6 pop cities with 2 or 3 workers and 3 or 4 tax collectors. The winds blow there as well.

Just a proposal.

Another one would be that the South of Bob is the commerce camps and we erect a Palace south of Imperial City. Aeson mentioned that would be a good site. It seems good.

	18-07-2003 15:32									#47
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My idea of an exit strategy is we own North Bob and RP owns South Bob.

	18-07-2003 15:33									#48
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Hmmm... we'd be pretty close to the Domination limit at that point (far in the future even if things go well), so a Palace in the S (much sooner) is the best bet.

	18-07-2003 15:34									#49
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Transports are one turn from Stormia from the area around Bilbao-New Madrid.

	18-07-2003 15:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Hmmm... we'd be pretty close to the Domination limit at that point (far in the future even if things go well), so a Palace in the S (much sooner) is the best bet.

Ohhh. That would be a powerful argument to RP to make granting land an easier pill to swallow. Can we have a tile count?

	18-07-2003 15:38									#51
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I'm off to Munich, I have to deliver the wife to the airport (2 weeks alone ) and my son to his appartment. I'm anxiously looking forward to my return, this moment is probably the most exciting in the whole game.

	18-07-2003 15:39									#52
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My thought is a palace in ND lands whenever we get a leader to jump it (and are sure we can defend it). We could move it later, either with another leader or with a long, slow build process if it seems prudent to do so. Our relations with RP are likely to be better if we gain our Bobian lands at other civs' expense instead of at RP's expense.

	18-07-2003 15:40									#53
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I'll work on one that includes coast. I'm pretty sure we could let RP have about 180 tiles on Bob (slightly less than what we have on Stormia) and still trigger Domination.

The coast may throw it off a bit, but it was very close to Bob having the 66.7% of the land tiles IIRC.

	18-07-2003 15:42									#54
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nye - For me, although this doesn't violate the NAP directly, it is rather too close for comfort. The NAP states that we won't take any hostile action against GoW. By allying with RP and attacking ND, we are switching the situation from a more or less guaranteed win for GoW to a war between themselves and RP which they don't have a real chance of winning. Plus if we take towns that they had lined up to take in the near future, and then refuse them rights to cross it (or be in violation of the NAP) - that last part in particular is just taking the piss. We will have done our utmost to ruin their chances in this war, and then claim that them crossing a strip of our territory violates the NAP? We're not actually attacking them, but we;re doing everything else we can to hurt their interests. That looks too much to me like GoW's stance on the MPP.

EDIT I know this is rather a subjective area. For me, this is twisting the intent of the NAP too far (after we said to them that it was the intent that was important). Others may feel differently, and may be right to.

And incidentally, I think GoW and ND's offer (help us and you can then sod off back to Stormia) is insulting. I just don't like this way of dealing with it.

	18-07-2003 15:45									#55
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Wouldn't that be a kick in the head for the aggressors?

Trick GS into an NAP and then try to leash them as attack dogs to render the victim helpless.

It turns out that they deliver domination victory to RP (by surrogate) over their dead bodies.

	18-07-2003 15:54									#56
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Regarding how our atacking ND would affect GoW, GoW hadn't told us anything about their plans for an alliance with ND before they got us to sign the NAP. On the contrary, they essentially made our agreeing to the NAP a condition for them to tell us their plans. So I see nothing dishonorable about attacking ND in regard to our NAP with GoW. I can see why GoW would be unhappy about it, but would they be happier if they hadn't talked us into the NAP and had to worry about being targets themselves once we learned that they were attacking RP?

Regarding the trick of taking over RP cities and demanding that GoW stay out of our territory, normally, I would agree that such trickery would be dishonorable. But after some of GoW's stunts - not just in regard to their MPP with RP, but also the way they "honored" their contract to land troops to support Vox against us and their giving us doctored maps - I'm more inclined to view it as poetic justice. When they play such tricks with technicalities, they should not be surprised to have someone turn around and do it to them.

	18-07-2003 15:54									#57
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quote: Originally posted by vulture nye - For me, although this doesn't violate the NAP directly, it is rather too close for comfort. The NAP states that we won't take any hostile action against GoW. By allying with RP and attacking ND, we are switching the situation from a more or less guaranteed win for GoW to a war between themselves and RP which they don't have a real chance of winning. Plus if we take towns that they had lined up to take in the near future, and then refuse them rights to cross it (or be in violation of the NAP) - that last part in particular is just taking the piss. We will have done our utmost to ruin their chances in this war, and then claim that them crossing a strip of our territory violates the NAP? We're not actually attacking them, but we;re doing everything else we can to hurt their interests. That looks too much to me like GoW's stance on the MPP. EDIT I know this is rather a subjective area. For me, this is twisting the intent of the NAP too far (after we said to them that it was the intent that was important). Others may feel differently, and may be right to. And incidentally, I think GoW and ND's offer (help us and you can then sod off back to Stormia) is insulting. I just don't like this way of dealing with it.

I agree to a great extent. I would be much more liberal with my interpretation of 'hostile act' if GoW were not actively trying to thwart our interests after signing that NAP.

Certainly, we will not attack them, nor will we even go adjacent to thier cultural borders if I can help it. However, they deserve no other consideration after thier 'temporary land' proposals.

We have an NAP with them. What if we race them to conquer RP cities? We can beat them to the important ones for us, by all reports. Is that cricket? I think so. In this situation we are simply gaining those cities by another, totally legitimate means, diplomacy. And, we are not gaining them simply to block GoW. To my mind, the cities in question should in all liklihood remain with the Storm. RP to be supplemented in the North.

I do understand your misgivings though. I simply see diplomacy differently, I guess.

	18-07-2003 16:10									#58
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quote: I agree to a great extent. I would be much more liberal with my interpretation of 'hostile act' if GoW were not actively trying to thwart our interests after signing that NAP.

I said this wrong. I think what I meant is that I would regard our NAP as an act of friendship, and I did, until the chats where we are to be minimalised and marginalised on our small (relatively) island.

Is accepting RP cities friendly? No. But what friendship has been returned?

I think that it goes to what one expects when entering into an agreement that does not necesssarily go with that agreement. There were expressions on this forum of desires for friendship with GoW before we signed that NAP. We were making an exception to our practice just so we could find that friend.

Now, those feelings are fallen cracked and brown onto the ground after their season. Our friends seek to use us to their ends and contain us on Stormia while harnassing our power to their own ends.

This is not a relationship of friends. We should not grant more to that NAP than is contained in it and its spirit. We will not be hostile to them. That does not mean we will not seek to enlarge our prospects without regard to their welfare so long as we are not attacking them.

The end result? We are not friends. That NAP does not imply that we are. It is only us who expected we would be, but we are not.

	18-07-2003 16:16									#59
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I must have remembered rather badly...

Total Land/Coast: 1890
Domination Limit: 1261
BOB/Stormia: 1204
Little Bob: 46
Legoland: 642

So if we had all of Bob, Stormia, and Little Bob, we'd be 11 tiles short of Domination still. So we probably can't win that way without basically winning by conquest (excluding RP) first.

	18-07-2003 18:12									#60
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Oh my, things have changed since yesterday.

Read the GoW/ND chat. Not impressed with them.

Still, I have SERIOUS reservations about jumping into bed with RP. Namely, these:

1) Our NAP with GoW makes things trickey, as you guys have been discussing.
2) Invading ND will be a *****, especially since our cats can't move through the jungle.
3) If GoW breaks our NAP to attack us, we're then fighting ND & GoW, and RP may be too weakened to help us out (or may not try very hard to help us).
4) I neither like, nor trust Togas & Co. They are slippery SOBs, and I'm concerned that we're a) lowering ourselves to their level; and b) likely to be out-weaseled by the professional weasels (axis of?).

HOWEVER, if we're gonna do this, we get an ironclad agreement from RP about what we get out of it first.

Second, my though would be to land further north, next to the gems mountain (on the hill 7 from there), build a city with our settler, and march straight on ND's core.

-Arrian