19-07-2003 06:35									#91
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By the way, I'm with Aeson on this one. We make sure RP is being really serious about this whole "vassals" thing, then make them prove it to us by requiring them to let us coordinate their defense. Back home, we do almost nothing but build military units and ferry them over to Bob until GoW and ND cry "uncle".

Think of it this way: if RP are truly our vassals now, we've just doubled (or more) our power in this game. We must protect our newly-gained interests to secure the eventual win.


Dominae

	19-07-2003 06:37									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson But then we have RP to help kill GoW. From the E, RP is dead, almost guaranteed.

Couldn't we manage an eastern landing within say, 4 turns? You don't think RP can hold out that long? Sure, they could lose a couple of cities, which would hurt them badly, but they would still be there.

More to the point, wouldn't landing forces in Bilbao take almost as long? Maybe 2 turns less?

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 06:39									#93
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Smokey, smokey. Be right back.

So right now, it's Dominae & Aeson favoring defending RP first, then advancing. Theseus and I (and zeit, in the other thread) seem to approve of a landing due east of ND and direct attack.

Right now, that is.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 06:45									#94
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I think we should leave Tempest on the Smiths pre-build, probably giving shields over to Arashi for military production. Smith's is our ticket to dominating the Industrial Age, worth far more than the 8.57 Knights production it requires IMO. Cyclone and SS stay on pop to build up every new city (or Aquaduct city) ASAP. Everything else on units.

That will allow us to keep rather far ahead of even ND's GA production, and coupled with RP's production should put us ahead of ND+GoW production capacity.

Regardless of what we choose to do militarily.

	19-07-2003 06:48									#95
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What if we are gifted bilbao and toledo, forcing GoW to attack or not attack. If they attack, then we ship everything north to take them out and then move south to ND. Their north is far more susceptible to attacks than nd's core.

	19-07-2003 06:49									#96
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Arrian, I have studied the map and your use of the desert to mountain route. Could we keep that plan for a little in the future? Here's why.

At this point it would be very uncertain if it would be successful, given we lack intel on ND and GoW dispositions, and ND has had no time to take losses and thus to thin out reserves at home (they surely have some). Also, wouldn't it be better used a bit later?

Scenario. 17 knights and a worker go by galley to the desert landing spot. A worker disembarks. If the coast is clear (no one sees him) the 17 knights unload on Turn T.

T+1 17 knights appear on the mountain 6 of Stonedina.

T+2 knights take Stonedina and if most are still combat capable, the unused knights pile onto the iron 9 of Anagramaskus.

T+3 Anakramaskus falls with any luck, and we have dealt a crippling blow to ND from which they likely could never recover.

If preceded slightly by a major offensive from the South, and perhaps the North (depending on GoW's actions) it could very well succeed and end the war against ND at an early date.

	19-07-2003 06:53									#97
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Hmm.

17 knights? Where are you getting that number? Upgrades, plus new production?

Does that not leave us VERY thin back home?

Second, does that also mean that the forces we land in the south to help RP are all slowmovers?

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 06:55									#98
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Asleep:

Hmm, yeah, but if GoW takes those cities, and then we move north, by the time we land any real blows, RP is probably toast...

Basically, Aeson's previous point re: how long can RP last? But with a far north attack, it takes us even longer than my proposed attack on ND's core. So RP would have to fight 2 v. 1 even longer.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 06:57									#99
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With the recent developments, I doubt our homeland defense needs to be anything more than skeletal right now.


Dominae

	19-07-2003 06:58									#100
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I think we have to have enough to block any 1-turn landings from Port Isolation, no?

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 07:01									#101
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Oh, before I forget, I have a suggestion for Roleplay's defense (immediate):

I note that Zaragosa is on a river, and is (or was, based on the last screenshot I have) at size 6, with walls.

Is the wall bug still in the latest patch? If so, and if RP can get a worker up there prior to ND's main attack, they should boost it to size 7. That way, their defenders get a 50% wall bonus, plus a 50% city bonus, plus the 25% fortification bonus. That's a defense of 6.75, IIRC.

Edit: same with Toledo, too, btw (no walls, but size 6 as of my last screenie).

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 07:03									#102
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quote: Couldn't we manage an eastern landing within say, 4 turns?

Our Second wave would be able to land in 8 turns I think, and not have any movement. Then they'd be another 2-3 turns away from helping against ND.

We may or may not be able to help against GoW, who will probably have razed Toledo, and gotten into the S (if they are smart they just bypass NM, pillaging a few tiles, hit Barcelona) or over to help in the W. They would be in a good position to block us off from getting to the W with our second wave if they go that way.

	19-07-2003 07:11									#103
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Yah, we only need 7 units to block first turn landings. We can't upgrade most of our WC's at this point, so they might as well be helping that way. Workers too, as some of the tiles certainly need to be improved anyways.

ND's "navy" couldn't get to us for quite a while. GoW's doesn't look to be too big either. After we drop off the first 2 waves, we can probably send 3-4 Galleys up to the crossing to keep watch and sink any second turn landings... or just blockade and route to the S. We'd still have 5-6 Galleys in the S which would be able to keep up with our flow of reinforcements.

	19-07-2003 07:18									#104
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We could use some catapults too. We do have 14 of them, and likely won't bring them over until later on in the war.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 07:35									#105
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Oh dear, Nathan appears to have posted something private in the public forum. Edited by the time I got there, but I wonder if anyone else saw whatever it was...

Nathan, what was it?

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 07:37									#106
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A new thread... turn thread again?

	19-07-2003 07:38									#107
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Well, I assume Nathan will post the thread in here next, so I guess we'll see.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 07:52									#108
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What it was, of all the lousy timing, was a Gathering Storm Intelligence Agency economic analysis, complete with a couple sentences of consideration of how GS/RP joint economic strength would presumably compare with GoW/ND joint economic strength in their golden ages. I caught it within seconds, but I'm not sure from the counts of how many times it was read whether I caught it in time or whether one person might have seen it. (I don't think more than one is possible, but I wouldn't quite be willing to stake my life on two being impossible.) I really hope I didn't blow the whole show with that.

	19-07-2003 07:54									#109
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Oh my.

Oh my oh my.

I really hope so too.

Beta seemed to be right there on it...

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 08:04									#110
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moved to diplomacy comments thread

Last edited by ManicStarSeed on 20-07-2003 at 02:43

	19-07-2003 08:07									#111
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So do we have the save now? Or was this from last save?

If we want to go public with the alliance, it shouldn't hurt us. Our production capacity and such is good intel for anyone who saw it, but could be figured out from the maps anyways. The main bit of info would be that we are considering RP/GS vs ND/GoW. If we publicly ally with RP, then that's not an issue.

	19-07-2003 08:07									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh, before I forget, I have a suggestion for Roleplay's defense (immediate): I note that Zaragosa is on a river, and is (or was, based on the last screenshot I have) at size 6, with walls. Is the wall bug still in the latest patch? If so, and if RP can get a worker up there prior to ND's main attack, they should boost it to size 7. That way, their defenders get a 50% wall bonus, plus a 50% city bonus, plus the 25% fortification bonus. That's a defense of 6.75, IIRC. Edit: same with Toledo, too, btw (no walls, but size 6 as of my last screenie). -Arrian

Sorry, what with all that's being discussed, I didn't want this to get lost... am I wrong about the wall bug being in v. 1.21? Or am I right, and could we possibly help RP beef up their 1st line of defense?

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 08:09									#113
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Arrian, I have noted the suggestion and intend to pass it on. They can quickly test for it. They have some reason to do so.

Off to IRC...

	19-07-2003 08:11									#114
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Good. Regardless of our final decision, we want ND to bleed.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 08:11									#115
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I think we should avoid the term vassal (or anything similar) in all agreements. Let the conditions define the nature of the relationship, don't label it.

Also remember that RP's main goal right now is to have fun. We should make this as fun for them as possible... while still getting what we need.

Something along the lines of playing up the "coming to RP's aid and protect the Holy Land", "land grants for the GS crusaders"... the whole RP thing. If we do it right, I think RP can be trusted just about completely. If we make this annoying for them, they can be trusted to rebel (or at leats want to) at some point.

	19-07-2003 08:14									#116
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Good point, Aeson. Though "vassal" has a roleplay connotation as well, but a somewhat negative one.

Let's run with the "Grand Alliance" angle, avoid the term "vassal" and try to avoid sounding at all arrogant if and when we give strategic advice. In other words, let's keep it on the level of advice, not orders.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 08:20									#117
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Crusaders? I love a good crusade!

Aeson captured my feelings precisely and in few words.

	19-07-2003 08:23									#118
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I like the Grand Alliance too.

I read Arnelos' proposal... Seems pretty good. I am afraid to lock into anything for the game. I would perfer a clause that says athe we can look at it every 20-50 turns and mutually agree to ammend it.

BTW, It is really odd that RP is likely gonna be a long-term ally. The whole energy, so far was that they were too annoying to want to deal with.

Once we tangle fates, we will have to negotitate personalities... Something we do not really have to do in GS

Mss

	19-07-2003 08:25									#119
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Oops. Now we're jacking the tactics thread with the diplomacy...

btw, I am on Poly IRC.

/join #GStalk merlin

to join me.

	19-07-2003 12:32									#120
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Aeson, nye, OctavianX and I had a lenghty chat last night and here is a bit of what we discussed.

Operation Magic Catapult Ride

We move all units out of Inchon (or elipolis, matters not) then send as accepted to RP. Their turn, they move their galley into the city, disembark, declare war and capture the 6 catapults in the area. They move the cats and their unit back to the city (if its a fast mover) and move the galley north to hunt for GoW ships. They offer peace and the city back to us as accepted and boom, their units including the new cats are in Pomplona. Two moves later they are in zaragosa, able to hit the second turn.

Note: we would also have to reestablish the luxury trades after this.

Also, Aeson created a possible land division of Bob, with the pink dots being RP. We eventually decided amongst ourselves that we should grant them more of southern bob (and less of northern) with the goal being to keep the ratio of tiles either 2 or 3 to 1, covering the entirety of bob/stormia. this is a good start, helps to visualize the tile count.

also, due to the jungle, we could help them out with our industrious workers. The goal is to keep RP happy, but not too happy.



We discussed more, but much was repetitive of what has already been posted. Unfortunately I used the java chat room, meaning I lost 75% of what we discussed, and I am very tired and my memory is shot.