18-07-2003 11:41									#1
	RP, Our Vassals Remove this text

So War has broken out on Bob. ND and GoW vs RP, RP suspects that GoW will turn on ND once RP is weakened "enough".

RP is willing to give us a footing on Bob, trade us some cities and become our long term vassals for assistance against their foes.

Read thediplomacy logs for the latest discussions on RP becomming our vassal
Please discuss and vote. This is not binding, it is just an opinion poll.

	18-07-2003 11:49									#2
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I don't trust them one bit.

Will they willingly become our vassals?

Perhaps. Perhaps they can roleplay that out.

But whatever they do in the game, its still a game to be in to win. They manipulated Vox into attacking us-the records are sealed until we agree to this, even then probably are falsified, blacked out.

Togas has been a real bastard

but...we can't let personal feelings cloud our judgment on the matter.

I am leaning towards the Bilbao maneuver, if for nothing else it will put GoW on the defensive and confuse them as to what to do.

We can give them Engineering. They could give us ivory (?)

I just see a major doublecross coming....

	18-07-2003 11:52									#3
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Like I said at the chats, while this does sound good for our end, I'm unconvinced.

First off, while RP really remain loyal to us one the danger has passed? They don't exactly have a clean record. If we did succesfully defend RP this time around and they did become vassels, that would also force us into another war when GoW and ND attack again...

Wouldn't this almost kill our relations with ND and GoW? GoW won't be one to honor our NAP. Both will likely remain bitter for a long while, and our potential cities on Bob wouldn't be very safe.

Then again, if we can keep all three Bobian civs there, our only real opponents would be Lego.

	18-07-2003 11:56									#4
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Right. An agreement with RP would likely kill everything with ND and GoW for the remainder of the game. Unless of course GoW betrays ND which I could see happening. Which means that we would have to end them, now. kill them all.

What would lego think? From what Vondy and Tiby have said, they don't see a problem with the MPP break. Has RP approached them about this stuff?

	18-07-2003 11:58									#5
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If we're going to do this, we need to do it right. RP can't have any reservations about gifting a city we'll need to block/hinder/annoy GoW into breaking the NAP. RP needs everything they have W of the Mountains to hold off ND... let us hold the GoW side and then help them out in the W.

NM, Toledo, and Barcelona could be given back after it's all said and done, but we'd need them in the meantime.

	18-07-2003 11:58									#6
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Actually, now that I think about it, I'd be much more comfortable about the whole vassel thing if RP let one of their Lords observe the goings-on in their forum. That is,RP lets someone from our team into their forum. That way, we could keep an eye on them...

	18-07-2003 12:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Octavian X Actually, now that I think about it, I'd be much more comfortable about the whole vassel thing if RP let one of their Lords observe the goings-on in their forum. That is,RP lets someone from our team into their forum. That way, we could keep an eye on them...

Nice. We could really roleplay that up. But would they go for it? Really? I doubt it. Plus they could just use an alternate method of double crossing us-ims or chats or another forum.

Aeson:


Agreed. lets antagonize GoW into screwing up.

	18-07-2003 12:12									#8
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It is a much better deal than GoW and ND are offering.

The lands we gain will be much better for us long term than any others on the map. South Bob has been our target since we have seen the map. It just makes sense.

Honestly, I am not concerned with turning off a team that attacked an MPP partner, no matter how big a loop hole they may have. ND has never been friendly to people off of Bob, especially if those people saw a destiny on Bob.

ND are actually our biggest rivals at the moment. They are the ones who seek to block our progress. This kills 2 birds with one stone. We get down in South Bob, and take Spanish cities there while bolstering RP with former ND lands.

I say yes.

	18-07-2003 12:19									#9
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I agree. We were basically looking at fighting RP then possibly GoW/ND. Instead we change that to GS+RP vs ND, RP vs GoW, and perhaps GS vs GoW or even GoW vs ND.

It's better on all accounts it seems. THe only drawback is if this is somehow some grand scheme to give us cities on Bob so they can take a couple cities of ours on Bob... which makes no sense.

	18-07-2003 12:20									#10
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Whats the worst that could happen? We are practically invulnerable in our homeland, and no one can cross and land if we are busy ferrying units across the channel.



Crazy idea:

They land the units from that ship this turn on our land

We move, say, six catapaults near their units. we also gift them the nearest city. They declare war, take the cats, move everything to the city, ask for peace gifting the city back. Boom, they have those two units and a bunch of cats, only loaned of course.

	18-07-2003 12:30									#11
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Going after GoW and ND instead of RP has been my preferred option from the beginning. To get a tiny bit of RP in exchange of a big military effort and have two strenghtened Bobian civs looking greedily at it never has appealed me much. Unfortunately, we can't attack GoW directly, but have to lure them into breaking the NAP. This makes it harder, but still possible.

The big question is, can we trust RP? Which basically means, can we trust Togas?

* Sir Ralph shudders.

	18-07-2003 12:42									#12
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I'm trying to think of a reason why they would stage this, and I'm drawing blanks. Anyone?

Basically it would mean RP, GoW, and ND are all against us, which doesn't make any sense. They have to hit us in Stormland to hurt us. Giving us territory on Bob to hit doesn't really hurt us... it just hurts them.

I think we should ask for Toledo initially, along with Bilbao. If they are willing to part with a size 6 city, it would show a lot. It would keep GoW at bay, and if they see RP is just going to give everything to us instead of letting them have it, they will have to decide to break the NAP, or attack somewhere else.

If we get those two cities before GoW can enter our new territory, then they can't enter our territory to pass us by. If we get the cities with GoW's units next to them, then they can use their movement to bypass our territory completely, thus complicating things.

	18-07-2003 12:53									#13
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I'm already at work and don't have access to a map. Can anyone put a map up, as discussion base? It should contain the theater of war as well as our western coast.

	18-07-2003 13:01									#14
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At the moment, I'm leaning more toward not giving GoW or ND a clue that we're getting involved on the "wrong" side until we have troops marching on ND's territory. I'm not sure how close we could get before being spotted, but with a little luck, we might be able to take some cities before ND can get their forces (especially the slow-movers) back from attacking RP. Our attack would basically set things up so ND has to pull back from RP to fight for their lives against us, and GoW can't get involved in the GS/ND war without clearly and directly violating a NAP. RP would then find themselves taking on GoW one on one, which they could probably handle (at least if they haven't already been hurt too badly), assuming GoW wants to push the fight with their partner effectively out of the action.

	18-07-2003 13:05									#15
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I don't know how we could mask anything if RP is going to gift us cities this turn or next. Though that does buy us a turn or two to prepare, and for ND to get further bogged down.

	18-07-2003 13:07									#16
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Due to the size of the picture, I'll just link to it. Here is the 50BC screenshot that Nathan sent out which shows Most of RP, ND, and GS:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Aeson/1111gsrp1111.JPG

	18-07-2003 13:16									#17
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Thanks, I downloaded it.

	18-07-2003 13:31									#18
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I'd prefer to meet ND's stack directly in RP territory. We'd have an ROP, and so we'd have the movement advantage. RP could feed us information on where ND is headed, and with what. If we kill the main stack, it sounds like ND couldn't have much more. We'll have to face their stack sooner or later, and in RP's territory would give us the best odds.

If RP tries to hold the E and the W, even for a few turns, I think they'll end up being hurt very badly, and be much less use to us in the long run. I don't think we can get in position to attack ND from the W. We could hit Mavdad (from a grassland) in 7 turns. RP might not have anything W of the Mountains in that time. GoW could be in control of NM by then too.

On the other hand, we can be by Pamplona with everything we can fit in our Galleys in 4 turns. RP giving us Toledo should give them enough Pikes to hold off ND until we get there. If GoW attacks us, we'd have to divert of course, but we could deal with GoW, and RP would be in a position to deal with ND.

If GoW doesn't attack us, they couldn't get at RP until it was basically over for ND's invasion.

	18-07-2003 13:42									#19
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Alternative plan (edit: crossposted with Aeson):

1) Have RP gift us Toledo and Bilbao (?sp).

2) Make it clear to GoW that a NAP is not a ROP, and that we will regard any violation of our territorial integrity as an act of aggression against us. (I see a certain poetic justice in that.) If I'm reading the map correctly, going between those cities won't be possible, and GoW would have a long, arduous trek through jungle to reach any other targets without going through our territory.

3) If GoW backs off (either withdrawing or trying to go around) and ND keeps attacking RP, we use our new cities as a staging area for an attack on ND. If GoW doesn't back off, we make GoW our primary target.

	18-07-2003 13:47									#20
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Sounds pretty good to me. GoW's Riders would have to be at Bilbao 88 or 77, and they couldn't get through to the other side of our territory in either case. They could move to Bilbao 98, and then pass all the way through the next turn. It would be obvious they moved through our territory though, and probably justification for claiming they broke the NAP. Otherwise, we could rush a unit in Bilbao and set it at Bilbao 9, and they couldn't get past us.

	18-07-2003 13:48									#21
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Sounds like what we've been talking about, but we do need to indicate that we consider entering our territory to be an act of agression, but to me, it looks like they would have to go through tons of mountains and jungles to get anywhere, so the point might be moot.


Have you guys seen the surrender demand posted by ND in their embassy thread? Hilarious.

	18-07-2003 13:56									#22
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We have no interest in HELPING RP- we just want to hurt them all so bad- and this is a wonderful opportunity. I don't see why you want GoW to break the NAP?

It is ND that is the main threat- and probably the less defended. Attacking GoW, with or without a RoP with RP, will not be more effective than attacking ND- due to the distance from the coast to the core. Attacking ND, however, looks like what we're aiming for- also since they probably have few or no defenders (if we believe RP's report) at home.
We shouldn't seek their stack- ask yourselves why should we want to save RP?

We should let them pound eachother, while we prepare with a large force to attack ND. Getting some of RP's towns can only be possible if it seems like we conquered them. There's no point in them giving us towns- it will paint a red dot on us right away. I have no desire to fight both ND and GoW alongside RP- because it seems I trust them not more than you do...

Hurt ND's economy big-time, while RP does everything they can to slow their army down, and weaken it, while we do nothing to seriously annoy GoW- we don't need another enemy now.

Think of the probable outcome- everyone on Bob are weakend, RP is semi-crippled, ND as well, and GoW, who is the weakest civ anyway, has a NAP with us- which we can turn into something more.

As for RP's vassalge- I don't know, but what's important is how we're going to nail Bob, and get something in return- this is as far as I think we should see things, becaus I don't want RP as long-term buddies...

	18-07-2003 13:59									#23
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Good plan. (edit: I mean Nathans) It forces GoW to show their hand. We may get rid of the NAP this way and have more options.

And the surrender demand is hilarious indeed. They're much more nasty than we were with Vox. Surrender without battle?

	18-07-2003 14:02									#24
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If we are permitted to have access to RP's private forums then I'm fine with it, even though they use chats a lot and can technically double-cross us by carrying out secret chats. But that would require a lot of hard work behind the scenes for RP (they'd basically be like a team that has no private forum, only a chat room; they might put up a web site but that's about it), and I don't believe that they'll want to go through all that trouble.

But let's not rush into it. There's still the option that ND will eat a lot of RP's units and then GoW will turn on ND, leaving us to deal with RP while GoW eats up ND and we end up splitting Bob and going for Lego later, as planned. I'm not sure which option is best for us, but somehow, the one I just mentioned seems less risky.

	18-07-2003 14:14									#25
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Whoa, I'm missing so much... I missed yesterday's chat and I've missed a lot while sleeping. Damn.
Now I've got so much reading to do.

	18-07-2003 14:21									#26
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I think our best-case scenario is to have GoW stay out of the fighting, at least for a while, so we and RP can both focus more heavily on ND. That's what I'm really hoping for by insisting that GoW stay out of our newly acquired territory, but to do it, we have to risk war with them.

Zeit, the reason I don't want RP hurt too badly is that a reasonably strong RP makes a war against ND (and possibly GoW) cheaper and faster than it would be otherwise. If we could be sure a war between the ND/GoW alliance and RP would be long and costly to all sides, I'd be all for sitting back and watching them waste their resources. But if RP's front lines collapse, RP becomes essentially worthless as an ally.

	18-07-2003 14:22									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Whoa, I'm missing so much... I missed yesterday's chat and I've missed a lot while sleeping. Damn. Now I've got so much reading to do.

Rule: Don't sleep.

I might as well not go to bed now, I have a full days of studying to do after tonight

	18-07-2003 14:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber But let's not rush into it. There's still the option that ND will eat a lot of RP's units and then GoW will turn on ND, leaving us to deal with RP while GoW eats up ND and we end up splitting Bob and going for Lego later, as planned. I'm not sure which option is best for us, but somehow, the one I just mentioned seems less risky.

A bird in the hand...

	18-07-2003 14:29									#29
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Offers that seem too good to be true usually are.

I have great difficulty believeing that RP are willing to throw their chance of winning the game. They know we want their land, and they are tellinus what they think we want to hear. I don't believe for a second that they don't have a plan to use this to their advantage, trying to get us to fight off their enemies for them by giving us their towns, and then taking their towns back once the defenders are worn down by war. Or some other plan.

And for me, the whole scheme with RP would violate the code of honour thing that we keep annoying the other teams with.

Notice that when asked by us why they think they're doomed if GoW is going to turn around and attack ND (which is always a possibility), their answer is that ND has too large a stack for them to deal with. That stack won't continue to attack RP if GoW are invading ND - it's going to turn around and go home. With the uncertainty inherent in all diplomacy here, I wouldn't regard it as a forgone conclusion that the GoW-ND alliance will hold, and if it doesn't RP are going to take minor damage, and still be in a position to be a serious power once they've finished Rexxing. No way would I be running up the white flag in their position - I'd see how things go for the first few turns of serious fighting, and then if it looked bad, I'd start going to vassal plans (or go down fighting, more likely).

Nothing about this RP proposal looks plausible to me. It does look like an indirect attempt to get us involved in the war on their side, but making it our idea rather than an alliance.

Stuff it. Lets stick with plan A, wait till Toledo falls, and hit New Madrid. If GoW riders turn back after Toledo we get our ideal war - we are attacking a damaged RP while ND and GoW fight each other. If not, we are back with the plan discussed with ND and GoW of us taking a few cities on the coast, and if GoW or ND want to do anything about it (or make a good offer for them) they are welcome to try.

	18-07-2003 14:31									#30
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We want a strong RP IMO, just not too strong. We can't expect to carry out an offensive war against ND and GoW by ourselves while they are in GA's. Playing defensive would be difficult enough.

With RP along for the ride, we could crush ND IMO, before their GA really starts to kick in. It also may deter GoW enough that we don't have to deal with them until later. GoW sees a free FP core riding ND's coattails right now, but if we join in, they aren't going to claim any more land... only lose riders and blow their GA to at best fight to a standstill. I think they will realize that and do what they always do, kiss up to the winner(s).

I trust RP far more than I trust GoW. RP may suck to have to deal with, but they haven't broken any agreements with us. With RP we have to watch for loopholes in the agreements and the diplomatic 'twisting'. I think we are smart enough to deal with RP on even terms though, not giving them an upper hand or loopholes to cause us too much difficulty. With GoW, we have to sign each agreement with the realization it will be broke if GoW sees any benefit to it.