18-07-2003 12:04									#1
	Reparations for african-americans Tired of ads?

Yes I made a thread on this before.

But the issue isn't going away. There has been a lot of talk about this lately. People are stepping up their push for this.

And yes polls do show most white americans are against reparations. But guess what, most black americans support reparations. And they are what matters. What white people think doesn't matter. because as long as black people push for reparations, the issue will not go away. The issue must be addressed.

This thread won't discuss whether you support them or not. I already had a poll on that. Like I said, if you are white, it doesn't matter if you support them or not.

The issue is here to stay, and must be addressed. How would you solve this problem? Ignoring the problem isn't that good is it?

I think african-americans should get reparations- if they can prove they were directly decended from a former slave. And obviously only white people who are decended from former slave holders should have to pay. All of this must be verified by documents.

So my solution to the issue is as above. I make reparations legal given the above conditions.

You may think reparations are wrong, because people today are not guilty of slavery. But I realized recently that a lot of money was made off the back of slaves. That money did not disappear. That money is still out there, somewhere. If it can be found, and a rightful recipient can be found, then give it to them.

Last edited by Dis on 18-07-2003 at 12:18

	18-07-2003 12:07									#2
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I am all for equal rights and such, and utterly despise racism.

However, I don't see a point why the people of today have to pay reparations for crimes that happened many, many years ago.

	18-07-2003 12:10									#3
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because wealth is passed down generation to generation.

slave owners made wealth off the back of slaves. The decendants recieved the wealth of their slave holding ancestors. They should have to pay.

	18-07-2003 12:16									#4
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I still don't agree... sorry...

	18-07-2003 12:17									#5
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normally I wouldn't support such an outlandish thing.

But then I realized, that wealth is still out there. People got rich off of slaves. That money didn't disappear. It is still out there, somewhere.

	18-07-2003 12:18									#6
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This "sins of the fathers" bullocks is, umm, bullocks, or perhaps bullcrizzap, or whatever. As somebody who played the first Gabriel Knight game all the way through, I speak as an expert on the matter -- only the Shatenjager can resolve such a complicated issue.

	18-07-2003 12:19									#7
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But they no longer use slaves.... and those who did are long gone now.

	18-07-2003 12:50									#8
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quote: I think african-americans should get reparations- if they can prove they were directly decended from a former slave. And obviously only white people who are decended from former slave holders should have to pay. All of this must be verified by documents.

Two issues with this.

First of all, it is an obvious fact that descendants of slaves are better off being in the US than they would be in Africa. OK, fine, there are probably individual exceptions to this, but by and large, these people benefitted from slavery - they're here in the US rather than in Africa. This doesn't justify slavery, but it certainly doesn't make me think these people need reparations, either.

My smartass solution is this: for the black people demanding reparations, ask them if they would rather be in the US or in Africa. If they say the US, tell them to shut the **** up. If they say Africa, give them reparations in the form of a one way plane ticket on Air Rwanda.

My real solution, of course, is just say shut the **** up.

Secondly, if reparations should only be paid by descendants of slave holders, don't you run into a MASSIVE privacy issue? You'll have the government digging into the past of millions of Americans, whether they had slave owning ancestors or not, in an attempt to find who should pay and who shouldn't. And what if these people literally cannot afford to pay? Should we confiscate the homes of these people? Maybe put them on the street? Preposterous.

	18-07-2003 12:55									#9
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hmm, the privacy thing could be a concern. I agree that the goverment should never go snooping into a person's private matters. I would never support that.

Basically the solution I put up is bullshit anyways. We all know they will never find any proof. but it sounds better to support reparations. This is the way the U.S. goverment can sound sympathetic to the african-american plight without actually hurting anyone.

So that's why I say to legalize reparations with adequate proof. But put the burdon of finding the necessary proof on the person looking for these reparations (and their lawyer). The goverment should not be snooping into our pasts. That sets a dangerous precedent.

	18-07-2003 12:59									#10
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quote: But put the burdon of finding the necessary proof on the person looking for these reparations (and their lawyer).

That's just gonna lead to either a)people hiring PIs all over the place and wasting more money than they are likely to get in reparations, or b)a huge backlog of court cases with a black guy claiming some random white guy's great grand uncle was a slave owner, and the white guy disputing the claim, etc., etc., etc. Utterly unworkable.

Besides, you don't think that the mere fact that blacks are living in the US rather than Africa is reparations enough? And certainly the ones who are on welfare (not to imply that all blacks are on welfare, many whites and other races are too) - surely they've already gotten enough money out of the system, right?

	18-07-2003 13:00									#11
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Punishing someone for crimes their ancestors committed is not only wrong, it's also unconstitutional. I certainly would never pay any reparations, though I moved to this country 11 years ago.

	18-07-2003 13:02									#12
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There's also the minor matter that the slave owners were not violating the law, so ex post facto concerns come into the equation as well.

	18-07-2003 13:03									#13
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well you are right David, but we can't actually tell them that

for some reason they get offended at that.

we have to appear sympathetic.

I don't think they will ever find any proof. Although in theory that money should be out there, money was virtually untracable back then. land deeds are a little more accessible. And that can be traced in public records I think.

	18-07-2003 13:04									#14
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I guess the blood price paid by this nation during the Civil War wasn't enough. A little green goes a lot further than oceans of red, eh?

On a more serious note, I support affirmative action and special economic zones for areas of the nation that need it — and, oftentimes, those areas include significant Native American and African-American populations. That's it, though. I will never support cutting checks to individuals or groups.

The best way to get ahead in the world is to do it yourself. If that honestly doesn't work, then that's where affirmative action and SEZ comes in (among other things). All of that will be destroyed should the reparations movement get what they want.

Gatekeeper

	18-07-2003 13:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis Punishing someone for crimes their ancestors committed is not only wrong, it's also unconstitutional. I certainly would never pay any reparations, though I moved to this country 11 years ago.

this is not punishment.

think of it this way.

A person is who they are because of the hard work of their ancestors. Wealth is passed on generation to generation. In american, each successive generation tends to get richer.

In theory, that wealth that was obtained from the backs of slaves was passed down the family.

	18-07-2003 13:06									#16
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Dissident,

quote: ell you are right David, but we can't actually tell them that for some reason they get offended at that.

Who cares? *I'll* ****ing tell them that.

Gatekeeper,

What exactly is a "special economic zone", in the context of race relations in the US?

	18-07-2003 13:07									#17
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quote: this is not punishment.

It is in the sense that slavery was not illegal. Ex post facto laws are unconstitutional - laws that are passed and retroactively applied after the fact.

	18-07-2003 13:11									#18
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well these are all good points.

but how do you tell that to the majority of african-americans who support reparations? They aren't going to like these answers. They will keep demanding money.

How do we put this issue to rest?

	18-07-2003 13:13									#19
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DF:

Special Economic Zones are basically zones within poor areas of cities or on Native American reservations where taxation isn't necessarily the same as elsewhere (or maybe a relocating company can get a low-interest loan). They're essentially attempts to create zones of development w/i poor areas by enticing companies to locate in such zones with whatever "enticements" they can legally offer. Since many such areas generally have majority African-American or Native American populations, that's where they can be found.

I think south-central L.A. was supposed to be one such zone, along with an area of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota.

Gatekeeper

	18-07-2003 13:13									#20
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quote: but how do you tell that to the majority of african-americans who support reparations? They aren't going to like these answers. They will keep demanding money.

Well ****, if being irrational and demanding other people's money is accepted, then I wanna try it out.

But if these people had guns, we'd call them bank robbers, so I don't see how being loud-mouthed idiots entitles them to money.

	18-07-2003 13:14									#21
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quote: Special Economic Zones are basically zones within poor areas of cities or on Native American reservations where taxation isn't necessarily the same as elsewhere

Well I have absolutely no problem with lowering taxes. This certainly isn't fair to middle class or rich people, but then again, taxes aren't fair to anyone (IMO) so I have no problem in seeing them cut drastically for even a portion of the population.

	18-07-2003 13:15									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident How do we put this issue to rest?

Simply put: You don't. All one can do is strive to make people wanting such "solutions" to their problems in the minority as much as you nicely can.

Gatekeeper

	18-07-2003 13:17									#23
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As long as these people aren't at the same time taking advantage of the taxes being paid by other people, that is.

	18-07-2003 13:34									#24
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**** it, this is just one of those issues where I've gotta say "show me somebody who wants reparations, and I'll argue with him/her (or at least hear their side of the issue), but I'm sure as hell not going to argue with his/her self-appointed representative." If evil honkies like me are the cause of all of the world's problems, then it's awfully naive of us to believe that we're able to understand all of the suffering that our ancestors ("our" meaning "all whities as a whole, because when you get down to brass tacks one honky's pretty much the same as another") have caused (and, vicariously, all of the damage that we've caused, since we're somehow responsible for the actions of our ancestors). My evil white ancestors certainly didn't own any slaves (for starters, they were far too poor to afford any), and I've certainly never met anybody who was able to determine who owned his/her ancestors (or who cared to know who did), which leaves me absolutely awestruck at this thread's premise -- "so, loinburger, if your ancestors were rich, and you were rich as a result of your ancestors being rich, and your ancestors owned slaves, then do you feel that you'd owe the ancestors of these slaves any recompense?" What the ****?

	18-07-2003 14:19									#25
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quote: And yes polls do show most white americans are against reparations. But guess what, most black americans support reparations. And they are what matters. What white people think doesn't matter. because as long as black people push for reparations, the issue will not go away. The issue must be addressed.

Any white person that says what happend hundreds of years ago means absolutely nothing is ignorant, any black person who says they deserve reperations for what happend hundreds of years ago is a whiner. And Im with David on this one, give them a choice to either remain here or fly back to thier "homeland" where they will no doubt be shot on sight because they are American not African. One more thing, they should be trying to get reperations from African nations as well as people here in America because the Africans were the ones who sold them for so cheap

	18-07-2003 14:21									#26
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Oh yeah, I would also like to go back and sue the people of Norway whos anscestors raped and enslaved mine!!

	18-07-2003 15:27									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident normally I wouldn't support such an outlandish thing. But then I realized, that wealth is still out there. People got rich off of slaves. That money didn't disappear. It is still out there, somewhere.

Here in the UK, in 1066 William the Conqueror came and installed a French aristocracy at the head of the English fuedal system. Maybe the 'pure English' amongst us may have a claim against todays aristocracy (who are all pretty much decended from the French invaders) for geting rich on the back of poor working conditions, racial discrimination, unfair work practises....etc?

	18-07-2003 16:53									#28
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most african americans have some white blood in them, meaning many (or probably most) of them are decended from both slaves and slave owners. ergo they should give themselves money

	18-07-2003 17:47									#29
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I dunno about repatriations, but Drop 3rd World Dept, smash the WTO. History is full of atrocities, but doing something about the ones being commited now should get priority. I definately think that if Japan is ever forced to pay for the POWs of the US and UK it took during WW2, then it should also pay for the millions of Chinese, Indonesians, THais, Philipinos and others that it also brutalised, and that if America pays for the crimes commited during slavery, it should also pay for what it sponsored in Latin America, South East Asia, and the Middle East.

	18-07-2003 18:15									#30
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Reparations should be given as community property. They should be used to build black communities, and train black professionals on the condition that they will work and invest in black communities.

If you just give the money to individuals unconditionally it will just be a waste. The status of blacks will not improve.