18-07-2003 18:17									#31
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Kidicious, so who should pay? All whites, or just those with slave owning ancestors? You run into major problems either way.

	18-07-2003 18:26									#32
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Wasn't the South being razed to the ground and hundreds of thousands of people dead enough?

BTW, I have numerous Irish ancestors, can I get some of those English bastards to pay me reparations for the centuries of destruction and famine they caused. Then again I have English ancestors to, does that mean that I should pay reparations to myself.

	18-07-2003 18:28									#33
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If you just had a more socialist economic policy the problem would solve itself.

	18-07-2003 18:28									#34
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The solution to the so called "black plight" in this country is to actually offer an equal opportunity. This can only come from the implementation of two things:

1.) Truly equal educational opportunity, i.e. all school districts being equally funded. This is definately not the case today.

2.) The absence of using race as a determining factor in social decisions. The talk of reperations is one thing that needs to go. This kind of thing tends to seperate blacks and whites into two distinct groups. This goes against the theory of "all men are created equal" (which of course applies to women as well!). Affirmitave action, while it is an idea that is grounded in trying to do the right thing, is equally as bad. Once real equality is obtained in educational opportunity and sociatal policy, then the need for both reparations and affirmitive action will dissapear.

	18-07-2003 19:07									#35
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Which African americans would ger the money. Colin Powell. He's obviously been disadvantaged. If he was white he could be Supreme leader of the universe

	18-07-2003 19:09									#36
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Kidicious, so who should pay? All whites, or just those with slave owning ancestors? You run into major problems either way.

Everyone should pay, even blacks. I don't hold individuals responsible. I hold society responsible.

	18-07-2003 19:12									#37
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 The solution to the so called "black plight" in this country is to actually offer an equal opportunity. This can only come from the implementation of two things: 1.) Truly equal educational opportunity, i.e. all school districts being equally funded. This is definately not the case today. 2.) The absence of using race as a determining factor in social decisions. The talk of reperations is one thing that needs to go. This kind of thing tends to seperate blacks and whites into two distinct groups. This goes against the theory of "all men are created equal" (which of course applies to women as well!). Affirmitave action, while it is an idea that is grounded in trying to do the right thing, is equally as bad. Once real equality is obtained in educational opportunity and sociatal policy, then the need for both reparations and affirmitive action will dissapear.

The problem is that funding education is not going to create equality. I think you know that. Something is missing from your logic. I'm not sure what it is though.

	18-07-2003 19:13									#38
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Which African americans would ger the money. Colin Powell. He's obviously been disadvantaged. If he was white he could be Supreme leader of the universe

That SOB needs to give me some money.

	18-07-2003 19:32									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The problem is that funding education is not going to create equality. I think you know that. Something is missing from your logic. I'm not sure what it is though.

Kid, funding education equally is but part of the solution. Taking that in concert with step two and now you are making progress. Until the idea of one race versus another race is eradicated from our society, we will continue to have problems.

	18-07-2003 19:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Kid, funding education equally is but part of the solution. Taking that in concert with step two and now you are making progress. Until the idea of one race versus another race is eradicated from our society, we will continue to have problems.

I agree with you there. It shouldn't be about race versus race. It should be about creating a more egalitarian society. The problem is that if blacks are treated equally by individuals in society they only way to make sure that they are treated equally is do give them advantages. That is, unless we can do things very differently than they are already done.

	18-07-2003 19:46									#41
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Actually, we should just send all the sponges who want a handout to Africa or someplace, regardless of their "color" "race" or whatever other excuses they claim.

Then let them sponge off each other, and "build communities" (another excuse for one set of sponges to get more of the money and tell the other set of sponges what to do and how. Trouble is, most everyone wants to get in the first set of sponges, so they have to set up some exclusivity to justify their sponge-eliteness.)

	18-07-2003 19:50									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious y. The problem is that if blacks are treated equally by individuals in society they only way to make sure that they are treated equally is do give them advantages.

Orwell would be proud of that statement.

quote: That is, unless we can do things very differently than they are already done.

Which is exactly what I purpose.

	18-07-2003 19:50									#43
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No we should send the fascists there. But take their stuff first.

	18-07-2003 19:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Which is exactly what I purpose.

I meant doing things differently, but in a way that will create equality. What is your solution?

	18-07-2003 19:53									#45
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Maybe we need the fascists to organize the sponges and teach them to be productive.

	18-07-2003 19:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Maybe we need the fascists to organize the sponges and teach them to be productive.

You already do that.

	18-07-2003 19:57									#47
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The fascists aren't doing a good job of it, then, because the sponges are still whining for handouts and not being very productive.

	18-07-2003 20:04									#48
	I am back on the rampage:How very not libertarian of you, DAVID. Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Two issues with this. First of all, it is an obvious fact that descendants of slaves are better off being in the US than they would be in Africa. OK, fine, there are probably individual exceptions to this, but by and large, these people benefitted from slavery - they're here in the US rather than in Africa. This doesn't justify slavery, but it certainly doesn't make me think these people need reparations, either.

The fact that they're better now is a non-issue. Their ancestors were used as slave labor, and demand compensation. Would you say that a socialized healthcare system is moral, just because people are better off?

quote: My smartass solution is this: for the black people demanding reparations, ask them if they would rather be in the US or in Africa. If they say the US, tell them to shut the **** up. If they say Africa, give them reparations in the form of a one way plane ticket on Air Rwanda.

I thought you were for open borders. why do you want to ship them away?

quote: My real solution, of course, is just say shut the **** up.

Might makes right, heh?

quote: Secondly, if reparations should only be paid by descendants of slave holders, don't you run into a MASSIVE privacy issue? You'll have the government digging into the past of millions of Americans, whether they had slave owning ancestors or not, in an attempt to find who should pay and who shouldn't. And what if these people literally cannot afford to pay? Should we confiscate the homes of these people? Maybe put them on the street? Preposterous.

Why is it preposterous?! Say, your father passes his estate to you after his death. that includes both debts and property. Why must the person who was opressed by your father, and has VALID MORAL CLAIMS, since he was made a slave, be responsible for the fact that you can't pay?

	18-07-2003 20:04									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I meant doing things differently, but in a way that will create equality. What is your solution?

Kid, I think that you have to start with Education. Once an equal opportunity is provided there you will start to see change. Also, I believe that it is time to create a constitutional amendment that would enable all race based organizations to be outlawed. Many of the so called black help organizations do more to polarize the situation than they do to help promote the cause of blacks. In the last twenty years they have changed their mission from equal rights to having more rights than others. This needs to go. Many times I have quoted King on saying that a man should be judged by the content of his character and not the color of his skin. This is the message that we all need to teach our kids and that the government needs to uphold. By having affirmative action you are judging by the color of skin. In an environment that creates educational inequality based on race this is a band-aid. Instead of covering up the wound, I propose that we heal it at the source. We must work to eliminate the causes of inequality. The primary ones I see now are educational opportunity and race based organizations.

	18-07-2003 20:26									#50
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OK, as long as no F.O.B. gets any of it. I guess an F.O.B. would be any person who can't trace his heritage to American roots past 150 years ago...

Also, I would like reparations for my great-grandpa, great-uncle, and great-great-grandpa who died fighting to make this country what it is today. Thus, they weren't able to become super rich and pass it down to me, barring any unforseen spend thrifts in that supposid tree.

Reparations are stupid. It's just a bunch of whinners feeling that they "deserve" something when the don't. Hell, if it is given then we should at least legalize drugs so that we can be sure to get a lot of that money back...

I very tempted to use the "N" word... NO!

	18-07-2003 20:30									#51
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Kid, I think that you have to start with Education. Once an equal opportunity is provided there you will start to see change.

I doubt if you could even create equal education. From my experience in teaching I saw that kids are mostly disadvantaged by the quality of students in their class. If you are in a class full of students who do poorly you are likely to do poorly. The next thing that affects a students probability of success is the education of their parents. Students with parents who did poorly in school also do poorly in school. Resource distribution is mostly insignificant. I have seen in Central California a great deal of resources devoted to disadvantaged students and the resources do very little.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Also, I believe that it is time to create a constitutional amendment that would enable all race based organizations to be outlawed. Many of the so called black help organizations do more to polarize the situation than they do to help promote the cause of blacks. In the last twenty years they have changed their mission from equal rights to having more rights than others. This needs to go. Many times I have quoted King on saying that a man should be judged by the content of his character and not the color of his skin. This is the message that we all need to teach our kids and that the government needs to uphold. By having affirmative action you are judging by the color of skin. In an environment that creates educational inequality based on race this is a band-aid. Instead of covering up the wound, I propose that we heal it at the source. We must work to eliminate the causes of inequality. The primary ones I see now are educational opportunity and race based organizations.

You don't offer any solutions. You jsut want to destroy the institutions which aid people who suffer from discrimination. I don't see how that will do any good. How is that suppose to make discrimination disappear? These organizations are a voice for blacks. You just can't take that away. I don't even think that's constitutional and it certainly wouldn't do ****, because blacks would still join together to fight for justice.

	18-07-2003 20:31									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I very tempted to use the "N" word... NO!

Don't be part of the problem...be part of the solution. Read my posts for particulars.

This kind of statement is exactly the kind of devisive thing that needs to be eliminated. The best way to do this is to quit trying to make up for the past by causing current inequalities. Japher's temptation is caused by the polarization that I am speaking about. This must stop for true equality to happen.

	18-07-2003 20:37									#53
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oh, you thought I meant another word when I said the " the 'N' word"! Never! The word I was refering to was the word right after that: NO!

	18-07-2003 20:38									#54
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"First of all, it is an obvious fact that descendants of slaves are better off being in the US than they would be in Africa. OK, fine, there are probably individual exceptions to this, but by and large, these people benefitted from slavery - they're here in the US rather than in Africa. This doesn't justify slavery, but it certainly doesn't make me think these people need reparations, either. "

That's a dumb thing to say, if Africa hadn't been exploited in the way it was in the first place, massively depopulated, carved up, natural resources stollen etc, then it wouldn't be in the state it's in now. Or at least one could say if slaves hadn't been taken [etc] in the first place, it's history would be different, and we simply have no idea how well of people would be in Africa.

Anyway it's a moot point, everybody born in America today is themselves because they are who they are and were born where they were born. The answer to the question 'What would have happened if I were born in another continent' is simple, you'd be somebody else. And lets not forget that many black Americans also have uropean and Native American ancestry, so those people certainly wouldn't be the same people if a bunch of their ancestors had never met a bunch of their other ancestors.

Finally I agree with MikeH's point, practice social policy and the question would not need to be asked, as the US nation would already be investing and developing it's population, thus a simple historical apology would surfice (as Germany did for the Jews).

	18-07-2003 20:42									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I doubt if you could even create equal education. From my experience in teaching I saw that kids are mostly disadvantaged by the quality of students in their class. If you are in a class full of students who do poorly you are likely to do poorly. The next thing that affects a students probability of success is the education of their parents. Students with parents who did poorly in school also do poorly in school. Resource distribution is mostly insignificant. I have seen in Central California a great deal of resources devoted to disadvantaged students and the resources do very little.

Kid, I agree that just throwing money at a problem will not cure it. There is far more to equality of education than resorce allocation. It is an important part of it however. Additionally, we need to be able to entice qualified teachers to teach in these districts and we need to teach more about King's philosophy(not just to minority students, but to all). Educational levels of parents does have an impact, as it does in "white" America as well. The key here is to have programs that will bolster the self esteem of all students so that they may reach their potential. Saying that kids do poorly because other kids do poorly is a fault of the educational system, not any inherent lack of ability. This system is what needs to be improved. Once it is (if it ever is), then change will take place within a generation.

quote: You don't offer any solutions. You jsut want to destroy the institutions which aid people who suffer from discrimination. I don't see how that will do any good. How is that suppose to make discrimination disappear? These organizations are a voice for blacks. You just can't take that away. I don't even think that's constitutional and it certainly wouldn't do ****, because blacks would still join together to fight for justice.

Ahh, but I do. I offer the opportunity for all people to unite to fight together for full equality and equal justice. Having race based organizations promote inequality and injustice as they try to promote the views of one race at the expense of another. This must stop. Where does it stop? It has to start with real educational equality and the dismatling of all race based organizations.

	18-07-2003 20:44									#56
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reparations = stupid...

1. There's no way to give the money to those who suffered.

2. There are too many mixed people... how do you determine who has enough "black" in them.

3. It would take away money from EVERYONE... why punish the rest of America, including people like me, whose families didn't even LIVE in the US during slavery.

4. What about others that have suffered... why just give descendents of slaves money? What about native americans? What about displaced families from WW2?

5. What about descedents of the men who died on the Union side during the Civil War? They sacfrified their lives trying to end slavery and preserve the union.

Reparations is a stupid idea. If the government is going to do anything with that kind of money, give it to inner city schools... create universal health care. Create programs that work! Give people an equal opprotunity to succeed. The problem with today's society is that there isn't equality in opprotunity. The deck, so to speak, is stacked.

	18-07-2003 20:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Kid, I agree that just throwing money at a problem will not cure it. There is far more to equality of education than resorce allocation. It is an important part of it however. Additionally, we need to be able to entice qualified teachers to teach in these districts and we need to teach more about King's philosophy(not just to minority students, but to all). Educational levels of parents does have an impact, as it does in "white" America as well. The key here is to have programs that will bolster the self esteem of all students so that they may reach their potential. Saying that kids do poorly because other kids do poorly is a fault of the educational system, not any inherent lack of ability. This system is what needs to be improved. Once it is (if it ever is), then change will take place within a generation.

Most of the teachers are qualified. There is a problem with teachers not wanting to teach under the current conditions, but the teachers are not the problem. Trust me. Education is just not the solution. The problem is societal. We can't just fix the educational system. We've already done as much there as can be done. Teachers in California start out with about 35k a year and their benefits are as good as anyones.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Ahh, but I do. I offer the opportunity for all people to unite to fight together for full equality and equal justice. Having race based organizations promote inequality and injustice as they try to promote the views of one race at the expense of another. This must stop. Where does it stop? It has to start with real educational equality and the dismatling of all race based organizations.

Just offering opportunity is no solution at all. There are deep rooted societal problems. There is no reason at all to believe that just giving people an opportunity will solve the problem.

	18-07-2003 20:49									#58
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Sava, oddly enough I once again find us on the same side of an issue.

	18-07-2003 20:49									#59
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My mom's side of the family came over from Sicily in the early 20th century. My dad got here in the 1960s.

Even if I agreed with the premise that the sons/daughters should pay for the sins of the fathers/mothers, which I do not, my family would still owe nothing.

-Arrian

	18-07-2003 20:50									#60
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You show me a black slave or former slave from the pre-civil war south living in the United States, and I'll pay them reparations.

This great union gave them their freedom from bondage and they ask for reparations? How about the blood of hundreds of thousands of americans. Would you like to bathe in it perhaps?