21-07-2003 12:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's capitalism for you. It hasn't solved our problems yet, and it's not going to. We have to abandon the old and usher in the new. Only a fool keeps trying the old ways. Have some vision.

Capitalism is all about bringing in new technology.

Communism is about making a whole population cattle of a centrally planned economy, thus one that cannot produce ****.

	21-07-2003 12:44									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Only when it is rewarded, not punished. That's human nature. Humans adapt to their environment.

ahh the true nature of your intentions

so you want to forcibley change people's behaviours.

I see how you are.

	21-07-2003 12:46									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I like money I admit it. I love buying things and I will like stepping out in the world to achieve and buy more things. There... if you want to punish that, you are certainly delusional.

That's not what I'm talking about Fez. I'm talking about people buying things they could really careless about just because they have insecurities. It makes them feel better for a little while, but then they feel guilty and empty. Meanwhile people are hungry, homeless and going with out medical care.

I'm talking about the lack of community attachment that keeps getting worse as capitalism developes. I'm talking about working for the same company for twenty years and losing your job for no good reason, spending the rest of your life feeling inadequate.

	21-07-2003 12:47									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident ahh the true nature of your intentions so you want to forcibley change people's behaviours. I see how you are.

What kind of dream world are you living in if you don't think that's the way it has always worked. The point is to do it in a way to benefit society.

	21-07-2003 12:49									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's not what I'm talking about Fez. I'm talking about people buying things they could really careless about just because they have insecurities. It makes them feel better for a little while, but then they feel guilty and empty. Meanwhile people are hungry, homeless and going with out medical care.

Well you speak falsely. This is 2003. Not 1903. Again you are nothing but a liar in this regard. You try to paint a bad picture for a capitalism that probably has a date stamp on it of 1903 or something.. this is 2003 and capitalism has blossomed. More people can live. You are nothing but careless in your remarks.

quote: I'm talking about the lack of community attachment that keeps getting worse as capitalism developes. I'm talking about working for the same company for twenty years and losing your job for no good reason, spending the rest of your life feeling inadequate.

Community attachment? That is hardly something a communist can discuss.

Okay.. take the typical Argentine problem... you cannot be layed off because of labor rigidities. Companies then collapse. The economy collapses. Then what do you have? A utter **** up. That is what you are proposing.

	21-07-2003 12:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Capitalism is all about bringing in new technology.

True. That's all capitalism is about. Technology isn't everything though. In fact it may does a lot of harm.

	21-07-2003 12:58									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well you speak falsely. This is 2003. Not 1903. Again you are nothing but a liar in this regard. You try to paint a bad picture for a capitalism that probably has a date stamp on it of 1903 or something.. this is 2003 and capitalism has blossomed. More people can live. You are nothing but careless in your remarks.

I'm tired of you right wingers saying that the world is in a golden age of capitalist utopia. Silly nonsense. Good night.

	21-07-2003 12:59									#38
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Plowed the north 40 with Bessie the mule this weekend, did we?

	21-07-2003 13:04									#39
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I'm tired of people calling me a right winger

I'm a moderate.

just because I don't believe in a system that doesn't work, doesn't make me a right winger.

	21-07-2003 13:05									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm tired of you right wingers saying that the world is in a golden age of capitalist utopia. Silly nonsense. Good night.

Why the fvck don't you move to North Korea and check out your beloved communism first hand?

	21-07-2003 13:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm tired of you right wingers saying that the world is in a golden age of capitalist utopia. Silly nonsense. Good night.

Go move to Cuba and see how your ****ing model is working.

I am tired of your bull. When I confront you with the facts you back off like a scared animal..

	21-07-2003 18:41									#42
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nkorea's more stalinist than communist.

and capitalism is a wonderful system, but it's no "utopia"... it's no earthly paradise, for one.

capitalism and democracy are the best systems we have now. they are not the apex of government and economics, however.

socialism and communism have no place in the future.

	21-07-2003 18:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Not really a religious topic... but assuming it exists... is humanity going to hell? discuss...

What an odd question for an Atheist.
Why would you even have this question?
If God doesn't exist, Hell doesn't exist.

It's sad really, if you think about it.
You're saying that the worst is possible, but salvation is not possible.

To quote an old Foreigner song, "I wouldn't want to be like you".

	21-07-2003 18:48									#44
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Well I use the word "hell" to describe really shitty conditions. And I am atheist.

	21-07-2003 18:51									#45
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Sorry to hear that, Fez.





Someone's asking about you.

	21-07-2003 18:53									#46
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Oh please... you can go back to your human being invented god and let me be.

	21-07-2003 19:11									#47
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quote: What an odd question for an Atheist. Why would you even have this question? If God doesn't exist, Hell doesn't exist.

I'm a "soft-atheist". I don't believe in any human religions, but I acknowledge the possibility exists. Perhaps it's wishful thinking, or some repressed level of faith, but I suspect there will be consequences for our actions when we die. There are two real possibilities, neither can be proven true... so I am simply examining the possible outcomes for all cases. If there isn't accountability for our actions, then people can act evil without consequence. And somehow, that doesn't seem right to me.

Anyways, I'm disappointed you d1ckheads had to threadjack and turn this into a commie/cappie trollfest. Take that **** elsewhere. Discuss the topic.

And besides, the system is irrelevant. If humans were inherently good, any system of government would have good results. And vice-versa, if humans are bad, than any system of government will have bad results.

	21-07-2003 19:13									#48
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Oh goody...another thread that devolved into a communism vs. capitalism thread. My favorite topic....

Look Reds....as much as I know you would love it if your theory had ANY (even a shred) basis or grounding in the real world, it doesn't. That's sad, because on paper, it looks really...."interesting", but it's got two problems:

1) It's not scalable (ie - not applicable to nation-sized groups)

and

2) In its pure form, it creates a power vacuum that WILL BE exploited by those with a desire for power.

Those aren't just problems that you can tweak something here and adjust something there and get it all fixed up, those are fundamental flaws in the design of the system that make it absolutely untentable.

Communism is not the future. The big red pony was trotted out, ran a few races, and died a quiet death.

-=Vel=-

	21-07-2003 19:22									#49
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Why has everyone who attacked capitalism in this thread been labelled a communist? Agathon's first post was pretty sensible in fact, and didn't mention alternatives to capitalism once. Simply saying capitalism is crap doesn't mean you're saying communism is better.

quote: Either that or some bright spark will manage to genetically engineer greed and irrationality out of our natures

	21-07-2003 19:53									#50
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As many of you have noted, I have a dim view of human nature, but I don't actually think we're intrinsically evil. We are simply in a position of having to choose the least of many different evils in an imperfect world, a mission at which we regularly succeed. This is more or less the one reason for my belief in god, that good can so consistently be shifted to work for the purposes of evil, and evil for good. It's also the main reason why I have little faith in the saving power of scientific progress. Most human suffering is caused by human error or greed, so more efficient systems of this or that only provide a new tool for abuse. I don't believe in slippery slopes or a single apocalyptic error proving the doom of mankind, a la Terminator. I think we're just going to keep working ourselves and each other through the same misery we've always taken, making new miseries as we dispose of the old, until we decide to stop playing games. Which isn't likely to happen, so I'm with Candide on this one. Just fight as best you can, on a battlefield you can manage.

	21-07-2003 21:33									#51
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I thought this was going to be an interesting PHILOSOPHICAL thread.

	21-07-2003 21:50									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As opposed to the problem called "communism" which roughly means that a group of self-designated elites forcefully decides what they think your interests should be vis-a-vis your usefulness to them and their interest of maintaining power and control over every facet of your life, all the while decrying this as a temporary and necessary measure.

Don't know what you are talking about old son.

At least you could do me the service of not assuming that I beliEve in 50 year old Stalinist methods. Otherwise you are beginning to sound like a broken record.

	21-07-2003 21:51									#53
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STFU with communism/capitalism!!!!

	21-07-2003 21:52									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The whole nature of capitalism is to allow people, individually or in whatever groups they may choose, to (a) determine their own problems, (b) determine their own priorities, and (c) determine their own solutions to those problems in accordance with their priorities. By definition, we don't deign to decide for you what the "solutions" to your "problems" are, and then impose what we decide is best for you.

Bull. If you're poor it is effectively decided for you. I can't believe that you would say something so blatantly false.

	21-07-2003 21:58									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Oh goody...another thread that devolved into a communism vs. capitalism thread. My favorite topic.... Look Reds....as much as I know you would love it if your theory had ANY (even a shred) basis or grounding in the real world, it doesn't. That's sad, because on paper, it looks really...."interesting", but it's got two problems: 1) It's not scalable (ie - not applicable to nation-sized groups) and 2) In its pure form, it creates a power vacuum that WILL BE exploited by those with a desire for power. Those aren't just problems that you can tweak something here and adjust something there and get it all fixed up, those are fundamental flaws in the design of the system that make it absolutely untentable. Communism is not the future. The big red pony was trotted out, ran a few races, and died a quiet death. -=Vel=-

If any of this was true it would be a worry. I suppose you know that "communism" or "socialism" are not monolithic theories but cover a range of theories which have similar aims and values.

Now we've got that elementary point out of the way, how about realising that you don't have to be committed to central planning if you are a communist. After all there is no a priori link between workers owning the means of production and central planning just as there is no a priori link between the bourgeoisie owning the means of production and central planning.

Those on the contemporary left don't much go in for central planning as they go in for smart regulation of markets through things like Pigovian taxes. Flogging dead Stalinist horses is not really providing a timely argument.

The present system is a manifest failure. The fact that there are sufficient resources to feed and house the whole of humanity and yet there are starving, homeless people is enough to damn the present system.

	21-07-2003 22:00									#56
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Shh...if you listen veeeery carefully, you can hear the arteries in Sava's head popping with rage...

Seriously though, I second him for once. This threadjack is getting out of hand.

	21-07-2003 22:01									#57
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NO, humanity is not going to hell, for one, becuase such a thing does not exists. For two, ebcuase there are no such things as "good" and "evil" in an absolute sense.

Man's nature includes the abilities which lead to us creating value judgements such as "good" and "evil". With time they change (all except those most basic to maintaining a social roder, which is key for a social being like homo sapiens sapiens) as our conditions change.

	21-07-2003 22:06									#58
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quote: Originally posted by GePap NO, humanity is not going to hell, for one, becuase such a thing does not exists. For two, ebcuase there are no such things as "good" and "evil" in an absolute sense. Man's nature includes the abilities which lead to us creating value judgements such as "good" and "evil". With time they change (all except those most basic to maintaining a social roder, which is key for a social being like homo sapiens sapiens) as our conditions change.

Bah. Shades of gray are just what people who need glasses see when they look at a black-and-white checkerboard. The statement that there is no good or evil is just self-assured intellectual vanity used to justify our own moral weakness.

	21-07-2003 22:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sava STFU with communism/capitalism!!!!

Sorry Sava, but if you don't want this debate bring some serious solutions to capitalism to the table. Then we can debate them.

	21-07-2003 22:09									#60
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quote: Sorry Sava, but if you don't want this debate bring some serious solutions to capitalism to the table. Then we can debate them.

No... it is irrelevant to the discussion. Humanity has proved time and time again that the political system has little bearing on the level of evil. I've warned the mod's so threadjack at your own risk. I won't respond to your petty squabbling anymore.