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Whatd do you do?
This poll is closed. |
| Teach N.Korea a Lesson it won't soon forget. |
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4 |
5.48% |
| Takeover the world. |
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20 |
27.40% |
| Create intersteller Empire |
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23 |
31.51% |
| give Ground force tech to America, let it conquer |
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4 |
5.48% |
| Share the Technology freely with the rest of humanity. |
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5 |
6.85% |
| 'Splode Paris |
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9 |
12.33% |
| All fall before the Banana Empire |
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8 |
10.96% |
| Total: |
73 voters |
100% |
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
different technology andusing different means
just because the Vorlons are better at blowing up planets, does not mean that they are better at blowing up ships
Jon Miller |
PLus, the Vorlons aren't better than the Imperials (of course, they've reached the point where it doesn't really matter)
quote:
The Vorlon planet-killer is a warship, approximately 5 miles long. Its capabilities were never demonstrated onscreen, as we never saw it actually fire its weapons on a planetary surface. We know almost nothing about its limits or even the method in which it attacks a planet. We know only that it is said to be a planet-killer, and that planetary civilizations attacked by it are "gone" afterwards. This is something of a disappointment; when one considers the dramatic sequence in which we were introduced to this vessel, it is hard to believe they would never show us what it can do.
Vorlon ships fire by creating an energy web between their forward tendrils, which then forms into a forward-firing energy beam. The Vorlon planet-killer has only one set of tendrils, so this indicates that it has only one large weapon. It appears to be a purpose-built weapon rather than a warship, since a warship of that size would need to have smaller weapons which can be aimed at targets surrounding the ship. Given that design intent, it should not come as a surprise that its defensive capabilities were lacking, and that a Vorlon planet-killer was destroyed onscreen by a swarming fleet attack, with no need to locate and strike a vulnerable Achilles Heel (unlike the Shadow planet-killer).
Known Effects
It is difficult to imagine that the Vorlon planet-killer would be more destructive than the Shadow planet-killer, since it is much smaller than the Shaow planet-killer and the two races seem to be of similar technological levels. In fact, observations suggest that it is less destructive. While we did not see the aftermath of a Vorlon planet-killer attack for ourselves, Ivanova called for an evauation of survivors from one such attack. The transcript of her distress call follows:
Survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale. We continue to need medical ships, transports, anything that can fly. We are in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground.
This obviously means that a Vorlon planet-killer performs an incomplete sterilization. If we assume that it sits in orbit and simply blasts the planet with a high-powered energy beam, its output cannot exceed the 1E8-1E9 megaton range of the Shadow planet-killer or we would see too much atmospheric heating and thermal radiation from re-entering sub-orbital ejecta to have any survivors on the ground. The 1E7-1E8 megaton range is probably more realistic.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:29
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On that: The guy who mentions Ivanova's transmition fails to mention the fact that a shot of the Vorlon fleet is taken after the attack, floating through a debris filed (what was ocne a planet). Note his notion of it's scale is also wrong, it is not 5 miles but 50 (did you not look at the site?)
Another huge mistake: the Vorlon Planet KIller was not destroyed by a huge swarming fleet: it was destroyed by the concentrated firepower of the Other first ones and their ships. I should know, I have the episode on tape.
You can't try to debunk something with faulty info Lonestar. Sloppy work
As for technical info: what the heck do those people know? If a Turboblaster shot had anywehre near the power they mention, when it hits somehting very small, like and X-wing, you should get a huge blast woith immese radius. You don;t.
Vorlon ships do have lousy defenses, no real close in one, since all their firepower is directed forward. They do have better manuverability than an ISD though. Shadow ships are even more manueverable. So vorlon fighters would deal with imperial ones, and the Vorlon cruisers could work themselves into angles where the ISD can;t effectively fire at them (becuase in all the movies, the ships had limited arcs of fire. They seemed, for example utterly unable to fire at anything coming straight 'down' upon them.
On the site: I must say I was surprised by the relative sizes given. I always imagined the ISD being bigger vis a vi anyhting else, Mimbari ships to be larger than Earthforce ones, and never expected the Romulan Brids of Prey to be so large, much bigger than most other Trek ships.
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
On that: The guy who mentions Ivanova's transmition fails to mention the fact that a shot of the Vorlon fleet is taken after the attack, floating through a debris filed (what was ocne a planet). Note his notion of it's scale is also wrong, it is not 5 miles but 50 (did you not look at the site?)
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I think he drew that conclusion by the accompanying picture.
(this isn't it)
It showed the CPK in comparision to Vorlon cruisers, thus giving us our 5 mi number.
quote:
Another huge mistake: the Vorlon Planet KIller was not destroyed by a huge swarming fleet: it was destroyed by the concentrated firepower of the Other first ones and their ships. I should know, I have the episode on tape. |
What would you call a bunch of first one vessles fireing on them?
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You can't try to debunk something with faulty info Lonestar. Sloppy work
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not that sloppy. You're rationailzing! RATIONALIZING!
quote:
As for technical info: what the heck do those people know? If a Turboblaster shot had anywehre near the power they mention, when it hits somehting very small, like and X-wing, you should get a huge blast woith immese radius. You don;t. |
The Turbolaser commantary link I posted covers that,even shows picks of varied turbolaser shots.
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Vorlon ships do have lousy defenses, no real close in one, since all their firepower is directed forward. They do have better manuverability than an ISD though. |
True.
quote:
Shadow ships are even more manueverable. So vorlon fighters would deal with imperial ones, and the Vorlon cruisers could work themselves into angles where the ISD can;t effectively fire at them (becuase in all the movies, the ships had limited arcs of fire. They seemed, for example utterly unable to fire at anything coming straight 'down' upon them. |
Eh? There are screen shots of an ISD hitting a Millineum(sic) Falcon in a situation you described.
That the weapons are set as turrets increase the fireing arc relative to the manueverability.
quote:
On the site: I must say I was surprised by the relative sizes given. I always imagined the ISD being bigger vis a vi anyhting else, Mimbari ships to be larger than Earthforce ones, and never expected the Romulan Brids of Prey to be so large, much bigger than most other Trek ships. |
Romulan Warbirds are Monsters, but still smaller (especially in Volume) than ISDs.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Addendum: many characters over and over emphasize the point that the Vorlons are blowing up planets wholesale. Many mroe references are made to planets being blown up than this one Ivanova quote. Sloppy writing? perhaps (or maybe she describes the after-effects of a nearby moon or colony to the planet no longer there). Either way, that piece remains wrong. |
maybe that was what happened after a bit and to completely destroy the planet it takes hours (or even days)
Jonb Miuller
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:29
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Each Vorlon Cruiser is over 1000 meters long.
There are many more shots of that ship, and it is certainly much bigger than 5 miles.
Also, there were 5 first one ships firing on the Vorlon planet killer, each of them almost 1/2 to about the same size as it. I don't judge 5 very large ships firing from a distance a swarm.
Sloppy, sloppy.
If ISD can fire in so many directions, why were they so freaking unable to take down just a few Rebel fighters coming to penetrate the defenses of a Sper star destroyer?
Lets add another bit: the whole "Imperial ships in the asteroid field" scene. With so many guns of such great power with such great sensors and so forth, we are to believe that trying to cross and asteriod field whould cause massive damage to their ships? If those shields are good enough to handle turboblaster hits, you are telling me the energy form small asteroids (after all, with such good arcs of fire, how could any large ones get through?) would be enough to severy damage these mighty ships?
JM: not that many days pass between when the Vorlons bring on thier big guns, and the time when the final battel happens: 2 weeks at most, and by them several planets were gone.
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:29
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from website posted by lonestar, i think, on Turbo Laser power (nice site, btw ):
quote:
In comparison, the United States now produces 500-600 gigawatts of electrical power. This is a whole order of magnitude less than the power of a single middle-sized turbolaser.
The atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima was rated at 15 kilotons. This translates to about 63 terajoules. Using my conservative estimate for TL bolts (ignoring vaporisation), a middle-sized TL bolt has about 30 TJ of energy. Therefore, a TL bolt has about half the energy of the Hiroshima bomb.
A bomb releases its energy in all directions, so an object immediately next to an exploding bomb won't absorb any more than half of the energy, probably much less. A TL bolt directs essentially all of it's energy to a target, therefore, a TL bolt is at least as intense as the blast from an atom bomb, even if the bomb was detonated while in contact with the target. At greater distances, the intensity of the bomb's blast decreases exponentially. A single TL bolt should have the capability to level a small town, as the Hiroshima bomb did.
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So, by the calculations of this dude, which seem somewhat reasonable but still very speculative (he walks you thru it), a standard ISD turbo laser bolt has the energy equalt to half that of the Hiroshima atomic bomb. Considering the Star Wars universe is very advanced, i dont see this as too outlandish, not by Sci Fi standards anyway
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Each Vorlon Cruiser is over 1000 meters long.
There are many more shots of that ship, and it is certainly much bigger than 5 miles.
Also, there were 5 first one ships firing on the Vorlon planet killer, each of them almost 1/2 to about the same size as it. I don't judge 5 very large ships firing from a distance a swarm.
Sloppy, sloppy.
If ISD can fire in so many directions, why were they so freaking unable to take down just a few Rebel fighters coming to penetrate the defenses of a Sper star destroyer?
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Erm, Didn't we cover this earlier in the thread?
quote:
Lets add another bit: the whole "Imperial ships in the asteroid field" scene. With so many guns of such great power with such great sensors and so forth, we are to believe that trying to cross and asteriod field whould cause massive damage to their ships? If those shields are good enough to handle turboblaster hits, you are telling me the energy form small asteroids (after all, with such good arcs of fire, how could any large ones get through?) would be enough to severy damage these mighty ships?
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Some of them are quite large. As you notice, the field was a bit dense want the vessels were being pounded on quite a bit.
quote:
JM: not that many days pass between when the Vorlons bring on thier big guns, and the time when the final battel happens: 2 weeks at most, and by them several planets were gone. |
Still doesn't reconcile the statement...
I'm going to bed, I'll be back.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:29
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quote:
Erm, Didn't we cover this earlier in the thread? |
Yes, bu to no ones satisfaction but your own.
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Some of them are quite large. As you notice, the field was a bit dense want the vessels were being pounded on quite a bit. |
If these ships are so utterly mighty, that would not matter.
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Still doesn't reconcile the statement... |
One statement out of many, plus visiual evidence against it. So the quote was sloppily writen: blame the writers.
On that site, which is trying to figure out the power output: It is really nuts.
Hmm..I ownder if those guys realized that when the asteroid was hit, oit made a sound in the frame...O my Gosh, physicists have been wrong all along, there is sound in vacuum, cause SW's has it there!!! maybe someone should tell these guys that the prop people who made that styrofoam stone really did not have some specific material in mind for it (htough it looks like Stone, not solid iron as they speculate), and the thing falling paart was a speficif special effects decision. Oh, but no, the FX guy was some phycist who before he produced the shot calcualated the exact effects of said power oputput on said material of this size...
That is why I think all of this "technical info" is crap. These guys assume so much, and in doing so make asses of themselves.
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Straybow
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SG(2)… gone but not forgotten
Jan 1970
time: 23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
The sun crusher could do this... an ISD, like anything else with capital ship shielding, could approach a star fairly safely, but if it were to get to close, it might get pulled in by its graivty and fried.
As for unrealism in SW, the only thing utterly unrealistic to me is the Force, and jedi piss me off… |
Urrrmmm, pet peeve time. Nothing gets "pulled in" to a star or black hole. There isn't a suction effect, it is just gravity. Approaching the star converts gravitational potential to kinetic energy, and by conservation of energy imparts enough velocity to escape back to the initial position (unless piloted into the body or event horizon by a fool).
Back to the original topic…
quote:
Originally posted by Kassiopeia
I like Strabow's plan… blah, blah, blah |
Smart man.
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Besides, with a corporation going on I'd have to expose my own persona to risks I'd rather not take. I can't run an Earth-based corporation on just droids, but a powerhouse of production is possible with them. Not to mention the taxes, I hate filling out those forms. And bureaucracy altogether is a pain, why go down that lane when I can just 'splode things if they get in my way? |
With a corp you hire people to do the taxes. And with a "closely held" corp wherein shares aren't publicly traded there is no exposure or regulation by SEC, etc.
Those old B-movie overlord types are passe. Corporate overlords rulz joo (take that, Ming). Plus, once you are in with the government of the cooperative nation taxes are a secondary matter.
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DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Re: bad bridge placement...how is it any worse than ST bridge placement, which is just as obvious and therefore just as vulnerable? |
Redundent controls. Better targeting sensors.
Last edited by DinoDoc on 28-07-2003 at 16:56
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