29-07-2003 10:01									#181
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Compensation for stole property has been a core demand by the US since 1959 and won't be dropped just because you think they don't have a case. We're in the right here and almost everyone agrees that nothing should be nationalized with paying fair market price for the property being taken.

Priviate companies built phone systems, railway lines, factories, and plantations and Castro stole them. Now, Canadian and European companies want to come in and buy some of those stole assets. Nope, that's not going to fly and we will go after anyone that deals in stolen property. I guess these companies have a choice to be abet criminals or to be law abiding.

Of course no one likes to be caught and punished but they sure love making a quick buck on theft.

	29-07-2003 10:05									#182
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Nationalizing does not equal theft: the US has laws about fair compensation, but US laws do not apply outside of the US. IN Cuba, laws would have to be passed to allow for such compensation (noone would actually get the land back), and I doubt such laws would be dmeocratically popular in Cuba at all.

	29-07-2003 10:12									#183
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quote: We're in the right here and almost everyone agrees that nothing should be nationalized with paying fair market price for the property being taken.

Eminent domain with market-based compensation is the exception, not the norm in the developing world. Look at, for instance, Mexico's siezures of peasant lands.

	29-07-2003 10:14									#184
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Get this book for Cambridge Press; it says you are wrong:

quote: Corporations in and under International Law This book deals with two important aspects of the place of corporate bodies in international law. The author examines, first, in relation to both private and State-owned corporations, the problems of diplomatic protection, nationalization and State responsibility. Second, he discusses some problems of those corporate entities which owe their existence to international law, whether international organizations proper or common inter-State enterprises. These questions are all ones of continuing practical interest.

	29-07-2003 10:19									#185
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And did that 'law' mentioned exist back in 1959 in Cuba (or applying to Cuba?)

	29-07-2003 10:23									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Compensation for stole property has been a core demand by the US since 1959 and won't be dropped just because you think they don't have a case. We're in the right here and almost everyone agrees that nothing should be nationalized with paying fair market price for the property being taken.

I agree that unless a complete socialist overhaul of my country's laws is being undertaken that nothing should be taken without fair recompense. But two things:

1) Cuba of 1959 was not Canada today. The kleptocracy that ran Cuba had pimped out the people of Cuba, and they had a right to take back what had been stolen from them.

2) No matter what my opinion, I have no authority over what the Cuban government does. In other words, you buy stuff in a foreign country, you take your chances. It's the same with foreign debts. Why do you think that countries can "default" on their debts, whereas if you did it to the bank you'd be locked up?

quote: Priviate companies built phone systems, railway lines, factories, and plantations and Castro stole them

Castro nationalised them. Something he had every right to do, as he basically constituted the Cuban government.

quote: Now, Canadian and European companies want to come in and buy some of those stole assets. Nope, that's not going to fly and we will go after anyone that deals in stolen property. I guess these companies have a choice to be abet criminals or to be law abiding.

They abide by all relevant laws. By the way, it's mostly US companies with outlets in Canada who are being hit with this, as if they have no US assets there's nothing the US government can do.

quote: Of course no one likes to be caught and punished but they sure love making a quick buck on theft.

People who did business with Batista sure learnt this lesson good.

	29-07-2003 10:28									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Get this book for Cambridge Press; it says you are wrong:

So Cuba was bound by laws that it had no say in creating? Interesting.

Countries are bound by treaties that they sign, right up to the point that they renege on them or withdraw. That's basically the state of international law as it exists today. So too ****ing bad for the asswads who got their toys taken away from them, because there's not a chance in hell they're getting them back. The US will drop its claims against Cuba like a hot potato when Cuba gets "liberated". They might be good fuel for the political fire while Castro's around, but will get very inconvenient very fast if and when the US is trying to win the Cubans' hearts.



I can just imaine it now. "Aren't you glad we're friends again? Now, Sra. Castillano, you're going to have to vacate your house because it was built on land that belongs to Consolidated Sugar".

	29-07-2003 10:36									#188
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We'll you can keep *****ing but if Canadian companies buy what we consider to be stolen goods then we're going to slap them with monsterous sized fines. If they refuse to pay then the court will seize there assets and have them sold at auction.

	29-07-2003 10:46									#189
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You must have missed what I wrote:

quote: By the way, it's mostly US companies with outlets in Canada who are being hit with this, as if they have no US assets there's nothing the US government can do.

AFAIK, Wal-Mart's based in Alabama (?)

All this means is that companies with no interest in the US will get a competitive edge against US companies operating here.

Though it did throw a wrench into our trade relations with Cuba for a year or so, it wasn't long until somebody figured this out.

	29-07-2003 10:48									#190
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While we're at it, the relevant states ought to compensate the Windsors (starting, of course, with everything American individuals, businesses, and goverments stole from King George III) and Romanovs and Bourbons and Habsburgs for all the property and goods stolen from them.

	29-07-2003 10:57									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We'll you can keep *****ing but if Canadian companies buy what we consider to be stolen goods then we're going to slap them with monsterous sized fines. If they refuse to pay then the court will seize there assets and have them sold at auction.

Plus, I'm no expert on this but if Helms-Burton is ever applied against a Canadian company then I get the feeling there will be some sort of massive complaint to the WTO or a NAFTA trade panel about this.

	29-07-2003 10:58									#192
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond If this ever happens (and I doubt it will), this will be largely owing to Castro and communism breaking down the banana-republic mentality in Cuba.

Could be. But "largely" is, IMO, not the right word. If it turns capitalist, Cuba will blossom because of capitalism AND the breaking down of banana republic mentality. I think they have some collective balls there, being a thorn in US arse for so long. Or at least they think they do, which is just as good.

	29-07-2003 11:01									#193
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Chill out, guys. Better listen to an unforgettable Soviet classic: "Cuba is my love" (1962, In Russian).

http://www.sovmusic.ru/mp3/cuba.mp3

Kuba - lyubov' moya,
Ostrov zari bagrovoy.
Pesnya letit nad planetoy zvenya:
Kuba - lyubov' moya!

..............

Muzhestvo znayet tsel',
Stala legendoy Kuba,
Vnov' govorit vdohnovenno Fidel',
Muzhestvo znayet tsel'!

	29-07-2003 11:08									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Could be. But "largely" is, IMO, not the right word. If it turns capitalist, Cuba will blossom because of capitalism AND the breaking down of banana republic mentality. I think they have some collective balls there, being a thorn in US arse for so long. Or at least they think they do, which is just as good.

I agree

	01-08-2003 19:29									#195
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Sorry to have missed most of what I started but I was in 'sunny' Ottowa for a conference.

A couple of points

A large chunk of the table sugar in the US comes from sugar beets grown in the south. That industry grew up after cuban sugar was no longer available and it is heavily subsidized by the federales. So I think it's highly unlikely that there will be any benefit to the cuban economy through a resurgence in sugar sales even if the embargo is lifted in the future.

The term Cuban 'biotech' is a bit misleading since it suggests the kinds of capabilities that we have here. Having met many cuban medical researchers and seen and the kinds of research that they do, I can say that's simply not true. IMO the cubans are to be commended for their commitment to health and education (and not just fomenting wars) but most of what they have developed would not pass FDA scrutiny and would not be marketable in the USA or europe.

Cuba's biggest economic asset after Castro will be tourism. It remains to be seen whether the national identidy that has grown up during the Castro years will prevent Cuba from returning to the 'banana (sugar) republic' it was prior to the revolution.