29-07-2003 02:26									#91
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the US imports sugar from a million places. if we imported from one more nation, im sure all that would make cuba on par with capitalist (and captialist/socialist) nations... i cede you the point

	29-07-2003 02:27									#92
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And it's all based on Russian charity, which is likely to reverse itself.

The USSR/Russia stopped giving money to Cuba over a decade ago.

	29-07-2003 02:28									#93
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You're talking out of your ass, Kman.

Pre-Castro sugar exports accounted for some ridiculous percentage of their economy. While USSR was still around they supported Cuban sugar industry with preferential importation to counteract US ban. Now they've got neither. Sugar industry counts for major part of Cuban economic contraction/stagnation. And yes, tourism was also vital part of Cuban economy. But the last time I checked they had no problem with Western tourism. There are innumerable commercials for Cuban vacations up here. US ban hurts them in a major way there too.

	29-07-2003 02:29									#94
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Haiti is the poorest country in the Western hemisphere and is vying with Bangledesh as poorest country in the world.

I know. That's why I'm amazed that you would think Cuba is hot sh!t, considering that it's economy per capita is only about 35% better than Haiti's.

	29-07-2003 02:30									#95
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GDP per capita?

Hah. Obviously that underestimates socialist economies.

	29-07-2003 02:33									#96
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The USSR/Russia stopped giving money to Cuba over a decade ago.

That's right. And Russia hasn't sent the bill collectors yet for debt. That's the other shoe to drop.

Russia has had to pay on Soviet-era debt. Cuba will too.

	29-07-2003 02:33									#97
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I still regret not going to Hoing Kong before it ceased to be a colony. I'm going to make sure communist Cuba doesn't slip through my fingers as well. That way I can sit back as an old fart and say "Yep, I remember visiting Cuba when it was still communist and there wasn't a fast food joint in the whole country".

	29-07-2003 02:33									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman the US imports sugar from a million places.

Actually, I don't think we import sugar at all. I've never seen any sugar in stores from any where but Florida and Hawaii. The only thing close is Canadian maple syrup, and even that's rare.

I'm not sure having access to the American market would help . . . except that they could market their sugar as organic. Cuba's a massive producer of organic crops (since they can't afford petro based fertilizers and pesticides). Cuba might make organics affordable in the US (which would probably kill organic producers here).

	29-07-2003 02:36									#99
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che, don't you maybe think that Cuban sugar would be cheaper than US sugar?

	29-07-2003 02:36									#100
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The single biggest item used as a sweetner in the Us is corn syrup because domestic farnmers can make it dirt cheap. I think the second biggest is sugar from sugar beets.

Things sweetened with cain sugar taste different. Try a coke bottled in Mexico and then try an American coke made with corn syrup. You'll know what I mean. It's faint but detectable.

	29-07-2003 02:36									#101
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Sugar in the US is predominately sugar beet and corn based.

	29-07-2003 02:38									#102
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That was the geekiest xpost ever.

	29-07-2003 02:39									#103
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Hmmm... Great minds post alike.

	29-07-2003 02:40									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The USSR/Russia stopped giving money to Cuba over a decade ago. That's right. And Russia hasn't sent the bill collectors yet for debt. That's the other shoe to drop. Russia has had to pay on Soviet-era debt. Cuba will too.

You don't have to pay back grants.

	29-07-2003 02:40									#105
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Will you be at DC meet?

EDIT: talking to Dan

	29-07-2003 02:41									#106
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Sure. When/where?

	29-07-2003 02:42									#107
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse che, don't you maybe think that Cuban sugar would be cheaper than US sugar?

It depends. If the embargo were gone and Communism still the offical system, then yes, since they could simply charge whatever they wanted, regardless of the costs in production. If Communism were gone, then until the US sugar companies bought everything and mechanized it and started dumping petrochemicals on it, no.

	29-07-2003 02:42									#108
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You don't have to pay back grants.

And a good thing too. Cuba's ass would be much more Russia's than it already is.

	29-07-2003 02:43									#109
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You're talking out of your ass, Kman. Pre-Castro sugar exports accounted for some ridiculous percentage of their economy. While USSR was still around they supported Cuban sugar industry with preferential importation to counteract US ban. Now they've got neither. Sugar industry counts for major part of Cuban economic contraction/stagnation. And yes, tourism was also vital part of Cuban economy. But the last time I checked they had no problem with Western tourism. There are innumerable commercials for Cuban vacations up here. US ban hurts them in a major way there too.

how is that so important? They arent going to just magically reclaim the sugar market in the US. The niche is filled by dozens of other countries, not to mention domestic suger. Why arent they exporting sugar so successfully to other nations? Russia still needs sugar, no? Why did they stop importing Cuban sugar after the fall of the SU?

lemme clarify
point 1- lifting US ban would be helpful to Cuba
point 2- lifting the ban would not transform Cuba
point 3- Cuba's biggest problem is its system, not hte US ban

i htink you are mainly contesting point 2, but im not sure, maybe 3 as well... we agree on 1 at least

	29-07-2003 02:44									#110
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Sure. When/where?

16th of August.

Somewhere along the DC metro line (not familiar with area)

	29-07-2003 02:45									#111
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Oh, OK. Sure. I'll almost certainly be there.

	29-07-2003 02:48									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman how is that so important? They arent going to just magically reclaim the sugar market in the US. The niche is filled by dozens of other countries, not to mention domestic suger (if that exists?). Why arent they exporting sugar so successfully to other nations? Russia still needs sugar, no? Why did they stop importing Cuban sugar after the fall of the SU? lemme clarify point 1- lifting US ban would be helpful to Cuba point 2- lifting the ban would not transform Cuba point 3- Cuba's biggest problem is its system, not hte US ban i htink you are mainly contesting point 2, but im not sure, maybe 3 as well... we agree on 1 at least

Do you understand that prior to embargo they were exporting 90+% of their sugar to the US? That the sugar industry accounted for enough of a percentage of their economy that losing it did an inconceivable amount of damage? That they have a great deal of difficulty getting into any other industries because the biggest potential market is closed to them (bigger by a factor of 10 than everybody else combined)?

They used to be buoyed by USSR (grants and access to market), but that's been gone for 10 years. What do you think would happen to Mexico if you shut the US' doors to it?

	29-07-2003 02:48									#113
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Cuba can export to every single country in the world except the US. I'm smelling a red herring when someone says the American refusal to trade with Cuba is the largest issue in Cuba being an economic basket case. If every single communist country ever formed (that is a communist country which follows communist principles) has had a crap economy in the long run then why do the whinners he think Cuba would be any different? They are looking for complex solutions when the correct solution is simple and right in front of them.

	29-07-2003 02:50									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Cuba can export to every single country in the world except the US. I'm smelling a red herring when someone says the American refusal to trade with Cuba is the largest issue in Cuba being an economic basket case. If every single communist country ever formed (that is a communist country which follows communist principles) has had a crap economy in the long run then why do the whinners he think Cuba would be any different? They are looking for complex solutions when the correct solution is simple and right in front of them.

thank you

	29-07-2003 02:51									#115
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Also for Cuba's sugar industry to be competetive with modern sugar production they're going to need new more efficient machinary. They're still froze in 1959 and the rest of the world's industry has advanced greatly since then. Heck, Mexico and Brazil have passed up Cuba and in the 1950's they lagged behind Cuba in exports of sugar.

	29-07-2003 02:52									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Cuba can export to every single country in the world except the US. I'm smelling a red herring when someone says the American refusal to trade with Cuba is the largest issue in Cuba being an economic basket case. If every single communist country ever formed (that is a communist country which follows communist principles) has had a crap economy in the long run then why do the whinners he think Cuba would be any different? They are looking for complex solutions when the correct solution is simple and right in front of them.

Cuba can and does export to other countries (despite US attempts to dictate otherwise, thanks to helms and ****ing burton)

But the US is 1/4 of the global economy, and is right next door. Europe is across the ocean. Latin America doesn't have any money.

This puts Cuba in an impossible situation. Which they're managing to deal with, thank God. Their economy is actually growing again, back from the recessions of 93-96.

	29-07-2003 02:54									#117
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Do you understand that prior to embargo they were exporting 90+% of their sugar to the US? That the sugar industry accounted for enough of a percentage of their economy that losing it did an inconceivable amount of damage? That they have a great deal of difficulty getting into any other industries because the biggest potential market is closed to them (bigger by a factor of 10 than everybody else combined)? They used to be buoyed by USSR (grants and access to market), but that's been gone for 10 years. What do you think would happen to Mexico if you shut the US' doors to it?

And do you understand that if the US drops the embargo, that they arent gonna automatically reclaim that? Also, do you understand that it is a different world now than it was in 1920? Why would the US want to import all that sugar anyway? As others have pointed out, the US mostly uses corn syrup and sugar beet, not cane sugar.

	29-07-2003 02:54									#118
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But the US is 1/4 of the global economy, and is right next door. Europe is across the ocean. Latin America doesn't have any money.

Yeh, this sob story is BS. "Across the ocean" is not that expensive nowadays.

	29-07-2003 02:55									#119
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If Canada couldn't export to the US we'd be ****ed too. It's nice to suggest that they export to other countries, but the transportation issues do have a great effect, you know.

Otherwise we'd be exporting as much to WE as we do to the US. Which we don't by a factor of 100.

	29-07-2003 02:56									#120
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quote: Originally posted by DanS But the US is 1/4 of the global economy, and is right next door. Europe is across the ocean. Latin America doesn't have any money. Yeh, this sob story is BS. "Across the ocean" is not that expensive nowadays.

Read the post that follows yours.

Across the ocean is very important. Otherwise explain why we do 100 times more trade with you than with Europe, which is of comparable economic size.