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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:30
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IMO the best way to beat the All Blacks is the very classical game England is playing since a few years. |
Some of them certainly don’t like it – but I suspect that is mainly because it’s effective against them. But we can and do play an expansive game when conditions allow – we didn’t beat the All Blacks last November just by keeping the ball up our shirts and in the recent game with Australia there was some sublime play by the back line.
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Did I read somewhere that the Heineken Cup is going to introduce bonus points? I think that's one of the problems with S12. Sure, it creates a spectacle, but it only drives the competition further in that direction. |
You did indeed. They are introducing it and the fans are concerned – but then something had to be done to make the QF qualifying easier to understand – and BPs should help separate sides. Plus the Premiership has had it for several years but the refereeing has not altered to deliberately make tries more likely – that may be a key difference?
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I mean no offence, but you are a tighthead Winston Churchill. |
None taken – as I know how you meant it. Of course you know what colour rosette he wore in contrast to myself. 
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The French were at it long before England caught up - strong packs, creative backlines. |
…and a tendency to fall asleep at crucial moments – yes we have followed them there.
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Thighs as thick as tree trunks and skulls to match. |
You got it – also immune to pain and all everybody else’s cousins.
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I was taking up your point about the unhelpfulness - to say the least - of the public bollocking. |
Got you now. Yes, good point.
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Obviously Frozzy became very very nervous and opened his wallet for the NZRFU. |
Why? Surely a scratch ‘developmental’ side of ABs could sweep all before it? 
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Havak - Pat Howard was inside centre and playing sensationally. His speed, stepping and sheer ability to create space was amazing. I'd forgotten how good he was. I suspect it was not long before he broke his leg. Gee, that really hurt his career. |
The only think he lost of those three was a little speed – but that’s crucial at that level. I wasn’t kidding when I said he was genuinely loved at Welford Road – and I honestly think he is still wasted at a second string French side – hell I would be happier if he had gone to Tamerlins mob.
Interesting description of a great side – I’ve also noticed Gregan’s once trademark sniping is no longer evident – one BBC reporter even accusing him of being utterly predictable (“double step back and offload every time”). I hope as with Larkham the real George is lurking somewhere ready for RWC – but save him for the ABs okay!
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Ah, but often it is moments of individual brilliance that win and lose games |
I accept that Frozzy – I honestly do. We have players capable of it – though maybe not the numbers that NZ can usually call on. One of Finbars old chums Mr Healey is always worth having in a side because he is one such game breaker. That’s why having played one game in eight months (and he took a cruel tackle in that that would have warmed Finbars heart) he is named in the warm up squad for the World Cup.
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A very separate argument but the crucial factor here is thats its one I have a chance of winning. |
 And Havak gets check mated nicely.
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I find absolutely nothing wrong with his choosing to represent the same country in the international arena. |
I don’t fault his choice either. I don’t like it or believe I could ever do the same - but I do see the logic on his personal level of choosing the AB route. I do however pick fault with the eligibility system that allows this kind of thing.
Birth, parentage or seven years residency I say. Lets at least ditch Grandparental qualification and ditch the Jones-Hughes and Brendan Laney nonsense scenarios?
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Obviously NZ teams have an advantage here, given the relatively close ties, geographically and otherwise, between NZ and many of those countries but you can't hold that against us. |
Oh can’t I? 
To be honest I don’t want to see us do that anyway. I’d like to see us develop English lads – or at least lads who are English under the terms I suggest above. Colour, religion and Orientation don’t bother me – but a lad pulling on the red rose needs to be English.
By the way I fall very firmly in the camp that it should be a white rose – but we’ll have to make do with red.
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Hmmm ... As long as the weather's fine we're sure to win, as long as Carlo screws up the kicking? |
If that’s what you read into it then who am I to argue?
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Although I do happen to think we'd beat the same English team that defeated us twice earlier this year I'm under no illusion that it'd be a sure thing or anything other than a close game. |
I am sure you realise I enjoy stirring the pot.
It would be a great game – I make no claims we could necessarily win it. I can safely keep saying we won the last two fixtures. I tend to think venue would be crucial right now – lets say I’m glad in a way that it’s the Boks and Wallabies visiting NZ next rather than us.
I still harbour this nagging doubt that the ABs are too alike England in one crucial way however –when all looks peachy is when it all tends to go badly wrong.
Have I ever bored you our tale of grand slam slip ups?
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…but it wouldn't happen, by the most remote coincidence imaginable, to be four years since they last played would it? |
Maybe. Prior to last November we last met in a certain pool game in RWC 99 – can’t for the life of me remember the result of that one. 
Amongst the top five sides ranking wise I think England-ABs is by far the rarest fixture?
Frozzy – Ulster are former European Cup winners.
Having said that the Irish Union is in huge financial trouble. Everyone in England has been amazed that Munster and Ulster are spending so freely as a consequence.
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And as for the England team - I think they should pay us money for having to watch their boring style of rugby and cynical ball-killing. |
Add 'winning' between ‘boring’ and ‘style’ and we’ll consider paying you.
I think fellow fogey Tamerlin exceeds my passion for SH style bashing. I do happen to think the amalgam style currently employed by England is very effective – and with better conditions they would surprise you by playing quite differently t how they did in June. In addition the AB back line is too damn good to need to infringe the way they do. Doug Howlett is a damn fine player and doesn’t need to jump the game line by two metres all the time (watch him).
I was not happy the ref allowed the ‘try’ he scored against us in June – my friend Tamerlin would have been spitting chips however.
As for SH set pieces – Tamerlin where are you???
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Plus the Premiership has had it for several years but the refereeing has not altered to deliberately make tries more likely – that may be a key difference? |
I don't think the reffing altered here with S12. They can only ref the game that's played. If you're talking about offside play, et al, that's become a worldwide phenomenon.
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None taken – as I know how you meant it. Of course you know what colour rosette he wore in contrast to myself. |
To my parents' eternal discredit, they game me a middle name after the fat, Conservative blowhard. My only comfort is that it was also John Lennon's middle name.
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Got you now. Yes, good point. |
It's being made perfectly clear in this morning's press that the ARU is rock-solid behind Eddie. Which is the only sensible thing to do. It is also pointed out that there is absolutely no alternative on the horizon.
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The only think he lost of those three was a little speed – but that’s crucial at that level. I wasn’t kidding when I said he was genuinely loved at Welford Road – and I honestly think he is still wasted at a second string French side – hell I would be happier if he had gone to Tamerlins mob. |
Watching that match has inspired me to look out for some of those compilation tapes - or DVDs - of earlier eras. It's too easy to forget the detail of performances.
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Interesting description of a great side – I’ve also noticed Gregan’s once trademark sniping is no longer evident – one BBC reporter even accusing him of being utterly predictable (“double step back and offload every time”). I hope as with Larkham the real George is lurking somewhere ready for RWC – but save him for the ABs okay! |
It was fascinating to watch. The key was the pack. It made Gregan's life so much easier. He's said recently that the team's in a performance rut and they are. Unfortunately, it falls on him, as the general, to lift them out of the rut. The BBC chap is quite right - Gregan's now utterly predictable, and I think it's come about because his forwards just aren't giving him the time or space to do anything other than retreat and pass.
A thought I've had on Larkham. I'd bet 5 Civ Gold - more if I had more in my account - that we will see Larkham move to full back, with Flatley and Matt Giteau at fly half and inside centre or vice versa. It wouldn't preclude Larkham from getting up into the attacking line and using his skills, but it would give him a rest away from the battering he's forever copping.
Who now can't get a contract with a Welsh club and is apparently off to Munster.
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Having said that the Irish Union is in huge financial trouble. Everyone in England has been amazed that Munster and Ulster are spending so freely as a consequence. |
See above.
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As for SH set pieces – Tamerlin where are you??? |
One possible explanation - I heard on the wireless news this morning that there was a massive theft of Viagra tablets from a warehouse in Paris.
Last edited by finbar on 01-08-2003 at 04:53
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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As I said elsewhere, I think the Great Unwashed, to the extent that they're interested, are basically being themselves - love 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down. It happened to Steve Waugh, Mark Taylor, et al. A syndrome with which Havak is more than familiar.
In fact, I don't think the Great Unwashed are all that involved in it. The hysteria was created - and is being fanned - by Alan Jones and his lackey Ross Turnbull. There's nothing racist about it, it's simply a very personal vendetta on Alan Jones' part against Eddie Jones - and Gregan, because he's Eddie's man - which is a small part of Alan Jones' much larger vendetta against the ARU. Alan Jones has never forgiven the ARU for sacking him as Wallaby coach. He never will forgive them. So it really doesn't matter who is coaching the Wallabies, The Slug will, given the slightest opportunity, deliver broadsides against the person, and, by extension, against the ARU. The problem is, the Wallabies are not playing well, nor is George Gregan, so The Slug has the ammunition. When Rod Macqueen was coaching, and very successfully, not a peep was heard from The Slug. The only way to shut it up is to play well. That, or an axe through its frontal lobe.
Last edited by finbar on 01-08-2003 at 08:31
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ravagon
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Australia
Sep 1999
time: 13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
I don’t fault his choice either. I don’t like it or believe I could ever do the same - but I do see the logic on his personal level of choosing the AB route. I do however pick fault with the eligibility system that allows this kind of thing.
Birth, parentage or seven years residency I say. Lets at least ditch Grandparental qualification and ditch the Jones-Hughes and Brendan Laney nonsense scenarios?
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I could accept a revision of the eligibility system perhaps, but 7 years as a permanent resident seems far too long to me.
IIRC, the last time I looked NZ had a Maori population a little over 12% of the total and another 10% made up of assorted Islanders - many of whom might not technically qualify as they're pretty much free to come and go as they please.
7 years would mean that little Jonno Havaki (a rather promising young rugby player by all accounts ), whose parents came over from Samoa when he was thirteen years old, and whose high school years were spent playing for the Pukarangi rugby team, would then still have to wait for two more years after he finished before he could play in the black jersey.
7 years might have been applicable several decades ago but people tend to travel more and more nowadays so such restrictions have to give a little.
By analogy, imagine if Wilco happened to have a Scottish parent and had spent enough time there that, due to some miniscule technicality, he wasn't eligible to play for England in lieu of Scotland?
*An aghast Havak rushes off to search through current English players Geneology charts*
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Have I ever bored you our tale of grand slam slip ups?
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I believe it may have come up yes. Once or twice.
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Maybe. Prior to last November we last met in a certain pool game in RWC 99 – can’t for the life of me remember the result of that one.
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I can. I made sure I looked it up before I posted it. Erm, this time. *ahem*
A war of words seems to have erupted between some of my Kiwi coworkers and some of our Australian tech support guys. This once, believe it or not, I am completely blameless. 
One of the kiwi's dug this up from somewhere (apologies in advance to the Wallaby team)
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The Wallabies rugby practice was delayed nearly two hours today after a player reported finding an unknown white powdery substance on the practice field. Head coach Eddie Jones immediately suspended practice while police and federal investigators were called in to investigate. After a complete analysis, forensic experts determined that the white powdery substance unknown to players was the try line. Practice was resumed after special agents decided that the team was unlikely to encounter the substance again. |
That said and done, if anyone is interested, I would propose a margin of between 8-10 points (in Australias favour) on the Wallaby-Bok game tomorrow.
Anyone?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ravagon
The Wallabies rugby practice was delayed nearly two hours today after a player reported finding an unknown white powdery substance on the practice field. Head coach Eddie Jones immediately suspended practice while police and federal investigators were called in to investigate. After a complete analysis, forensic experts determined that the white powdery substance unknown to players was the try line. Practice was resumed after special agents decided that the team was unlikely to encounter the substance again. |
Yes, it had another outing in this morning's paper. Peter Fitzsimons, former Wallaby and supremely untalented journalist, ran it a couple of years ago. It's been adapted for various teams in various sports over time.
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That said and done, if anyone is interested, I would propose a margin of between 8-10 points (in Australias favour) on the Wallaby-Bok game tomorrow.
Anyone? |
Good thinking. I'd almost forgotten. The Boks have made their usual plethora of changes and the Wallabies are under massive pressure to lift their game. How about 9.5? Will anyone back the Boks with that start? Remember, our margin, within reason, is more about ensuring a betting contest for ourselves than a forensic analysis.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ravagon
Now that I've suggested 8-10 I should probably point out that my last couple of guesses were something like 7 and 8, and these for games in which the All-blacks won by, well, slightly larger margins each time.
ie: My recent guesses have been lousy. It might be an idea to knock it up to 11.5 or maybe even 12.5? |
Something like that would attract some Bok money, I'd've thought.
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If we have a quorum I'm also tempted to suggest that in the very near future we either
(a) allow deficit betting - as long as nobody goes off the deep end betting hundreds at a time. |
Agree. Maybe a 20 limit or similar.
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(b) Declare that heinous gold-hog Andydog the winner this time around and reset everything. |
Frankly, I don't think he ever existed except as a Tamerlin DL. I put the motion that we declare him as such and distribute his account amongst the rest of us. Tamerlin excluded, to teach him a lesson for being a smartypants.
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Also we should pay FP the one-time-only princely sum of 100 civ gold in exchange for all of his archive-related services, at which point he is forever indebted and obliged to continue indefinitely. |
Depends how frustrated a poet he is. If he's as frustrated as some I know, he'd only spend it on cheap plonk. If it comes to that, he probably would anyway.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:30
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The problem is I now have this strange mix of the Fat Cow thumb nail, Winston and John Lennon stuck in my minds eye. Bizarre.
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If you're talking about offside play, et al, that's become a worldwide phenomenon. |
All teams do it – the level of incidence remains most impressive in S12 however.
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It is also pointed out that there is absolutely no alternative on the horizon. |
I meant to mention it last time actually – how about foreign talent. Buck Shelford is available I believe. A man who can play on after having a happy sack stitched up could be just what the Wallaby coaching set up needs right now.
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It's too easy to forget the detail of performances. |
Very true. I’ve forgotten the details of almost every Tigers game last year - but then it was a very forgettable season.
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I think it's come about because his forwards just aren't giving him the time or space to do anything other than retreat and pass. |
I am sure you are right. The front row is definitely the problem you identified it as. I think playing the two opensides wasn’t a disaster but I can’t help but feel a more physical presence like Owen would help get that ball being carried forward.
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I'd bet 5 Civ Gold - more if I had more in my account - that we will see Larkham move to full back |
Can’t take that bet – it makes too much sense.
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Who now can't get a contract with a Welsh club and is apparently off to Munster. |
Just like World+Dog is at the moment. JJH was unlucky in suffering a serious injury fairly soon after his much hyped move – but it’s very clear he was never really going to worry Wallaby selectors even if he had stayed fit down there – a very over hyped player.
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One possible explanation - I heard on the wireless news this morning that there was a massive theft of Viagra tablets from a warehouse in Paris. |
I rather suspected chemicals were involved after that amazing little Anglo-French patriotic montage he posted the other day.
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The only way to shut it up is to play well. That, or an axe through its frontal lobe. |
I’m not entirely sure which option would make you happier?
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would then still have to wait for two more years after he finished before he could play in the black jersey. |
And given he is Samoan and not a New Zealander I just can’t really see anything wrong with that myself. Nice name though.
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7 years might have been applicable several decades ago but people tend to travel more and more nowadays so such restrictions have to give a little. |
This seems a flawed argument. People travel a lot therefore they should be able to choose what nationality they are on some kind of ad hoc fast track basis? I went to Australia two years ago – I’ve never been capped for England – can I put myself up for Wallaby selection?
Actually thinking about their front row crisis not such a bad idea.
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imagine if Wilco happened to have a Scottish parent and had spent enough time there that, due to some miniscule technicality, he wasn't eligible to play for England in lieu of Scotland? |
But you see under my suggestion for eligibility he would still be able to play for us because the lad was born in England. Also under my suggestion he could also choose to be Scottish should he so wish (were he insane enough!).
Your analogy would catch me out more if he had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents then moved south at 16 to play for Newcastle and from thence get selected for England. In such a scenario I would expect him to wait and qualify however much it harmed England – seven whole years so he would be 23 before he could play (the age he is now bizarrely enough).
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I believe it may have come up yes. Once or twice. |
I must apologise – strangely those games have all stuck in my mind. A lot of players – English and Celts have gone on my “you total buffoon” list from those games.
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I made sure I looked it up before I posted it. Erm, this time. *ahem* |
You know I rather suspected you had.
The ABs were very impressive winning that pool and looked real sharp in the QF. Who did they meet in the SF again?
If ever Tamerlin needed an open door…
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That said and done, if anyone is interested, I would propose a margin of between 8-10 points (in Australias favour) on the Wallaby-Bok game tomorrow.
Anyone? |
I quite liked that sarcastic try line piece even if it was a little unfair to a side that scored three tries even whilst being routed.
Is that margin a start of 9.5 to the Wallabies? Or have I misread that? The Wallabies are my favourites for the home leg so a start for them makes a Bok bet worthless?
As Finbar says we need to make it worthwhile for punters to back both sides or no one wins anything.
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He saves that up for his trips to London. |
Public locker rooms as found in many a Park perhaps?
As far as the betting goes Finbar how about we reset after the Tri-nations concludes – giving everyone a fresh pot ready for the Warm up games and RWC itself?
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:30
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As the old try line gag has been recycled here is another old favourite I got sent again this week.
Rugby World Cup 2003 - IRB Rugby World Cup 2003
Following complaints made to the IRB about the All Blacks being allowed to motivate themselves by performing the 'Haka' before their games, other nations were asked to suggest pre-match rituals of their own.
The IRB Rugby World Cup 2003 Organising Committee has now agreed to the following pre-match displays:
The England team will chat about the weather, wave hankies in the air and attach bells to their ankles before moaning about how they invented the game and gave it to the world, and how it's not fair that everyone still thinks New Zealand are the best team in the world.
The Scotland team will chant "You lookin' at me Jimmy?" before smashing an Iron Bru bottle over their opponents' heads.
The Ireland team will split into two, with the Southern half performing a Riverdance, while the Northerners march the Traditional route from their dressing room to the pitch, via their opponents dressing room.
Argentina will unexpectedly invade a small part of opposition territory, claim it as their own "Las In-Goals-Areas" and then be forcibly removed by the match stewards.
Two members of the South African team will claim to be more important than the other 13 whom they will imprison between the posts whilst they claim the rest of the pitch for themselves.
The Americans will not attend until almost full time. In future years they will amend the records to show that they were in fact the most important team in the tournament and Hollywood will make a film called 'Saving No.8 Lyle'.
Five of the Canadian team will sing La Marseillaise and hold the rest of the team to ransom.
The Italian team will arrive in Armani gear and then run away.
The Spanish will sneak into the other half of the pitch, mow it and then claim that it was all in line with European "grass quotas". They will then curl up under the posts and have a kip until half time, when their appeal for compensation against the UK Government will be heard.
The Japanese will attempt to strengthen their team by offering good salaries to the key opposition players and then run around the pitch at high speed in a highly efficient manner before buying the ground (with a subsidy from the UK Government).
The French will declare they have new scientific evidence that the opposition are in fact all mad. They will then park lorries across the halfway line, let sheep loose in the opposition half and burn the officials.
The Australians will have a barbie before negotiating lucrative singing and TV contracts in the UK. They will then invite all their mates to come and live with them in Shepherds Bush."
Unfortunately the Committee were unable to accept the Welsh suggestion following representations from the RSPCA.
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31-07-2003 18:24
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