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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:30
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As do I.
What do I believe?
I believe in the living God, the God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and who is still God today.
Boris:
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No, it doesn't. If you take an empiric look at the world, rather than focusing on your narrow personal experience, you'll note that there are a huge number of religious beliefs across the world, not to mention a lack of it.
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So what does this mean? People have a spiritual void in their lives,and they seek different ways of filling that void.
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Were you to assess the life qualities of all these people, it would show that religious belief has little to no effect on how people live in their respective areas.
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'life qualities' seems very vague, and not an empirical measure. How does one weigh an improved life quality?
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An atheist in NYC is likely to live a similar life to a Christian in NYC, as an atheist in Texas is likely to live a similar life to a Christian in Texas
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Is a Christian as likely to sleep with a member of the same sex as an atheist? Is a christian as likely to divorce as an atheist? These are just two that I put up for you to demonstrate no difference between Christians and between atheists.
Secondly, those who call themselves Christians, yet do not change their behavior, does this call into question the existence of God, or the sinfulness of man? I believe that such 'Christians' have a problem with the latter, rather than the former.
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There is no evidence of any divine intervention or effect on the lives of adherents vs. non-adherents, nor of adherents of one faith vs. adherents of another. There is a lot of emotional speculation, but it's just that--speculation.
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Before I can answer the question, I need to know what qualifies as 'evidence' of divine intervention in the world. What are your criteria, and your justification for these criteria?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:30
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Sava, well I don't know how it is there.. in here there's no forcing.. I guess we lack of fundies then.
Sure, I'd be pissed if I was questioned all the time and someone tried to tell me my beliefs are rubbish and convert me to OTHER religion. Why? Because I don't have time for that, and frankly I don't care, I got mine already.
edit: I mean it would be OK if I had to debate few times about the issue, but then again it's not possible, I'd had to debate 100 a day if I answered the challenge.
There's no point, I don't go changing my beliefs every other week. I stick with the winning horse! 
And these debates always comes down the same points, and those who believe say 'well it's a matter of faith', and atheists sticks with 'if there's no proof, God can not exist'. So what's the point of arguing about it any further? And because that's the case most of the times, what's the point even starting arguing.
You either believe, or you don't.
Last edited by Pekka on 01-08-2003 at 20:52
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Sava, well I don't know how it is there.. in here there's no forcing.. I guess we lack of fundies then.
Sure, I'd be pissed if I was questioned all the time and someone tried to tell me my beliefs are rubbish and convert me to OTHER religion. Why? Because I don't have time for that, and frankly I don't care, I got mine already.
edit: I mean it would be OK if I had to debate few times about the issue, but then again it's not possible, I'd had to debate 100 a day if I answered the challenge.
There's no point, I don't go changing my beliefs every other week. I stick with the winning horse!
And these debates always comes down the same points, and those who believe say 'well it's a matter of faith', and atheists sticks with 'if there's no proof, God can not exist'. So what's the point of arguing about it any further? And because that's the case most of the times, what's the point even starting arguing.
You either believe, or you don't. |
Good points. But yes, Finland is different than America.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
So what does this mean? People have a spiritual void in their lives,and they seek different ways of filling that void. |
And many do not feel they have such a void and do not seek to fill it. And people who seek it in different ways don't lead vastly different lives or have different things happen to them that fall along lines of religious belief. If we could look at people and say "Ok, it seems Christians in X have far less uncontrollable bad things happen to them than Atheists in X, ergo Christians must be on to something," that would be an observational support of a certain religious doctrine.
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'life qualities' seems very vague, and not an empirical measure. How does one weigh an improved life quality? |
Well, just look at the claims religiousicts have regarding what their particular God does for them, and match them to people of different/no religions. If there is no real difference between what happens to group A and group B, despite different religious beliefs, then there's no evidence that belief in a particular God changes one's existence in the world.
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s a Christian as likely to sleep with a member of the same sex as an atheist? |
Most homosexuals are religious, and most of those are Christians. You may not consider them "real" Christians, but they certainly believe they are such. This isn't the point, however, as we're not talking about behavorial differences (which are certainly going to be there), but rather uncontrollable "Acts of God." Are Christians as likely as anyone else to get cancer?
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Is a christian as likely to divorce as an atheist? These are just two that I put up for you to demonstrate no difference between Christians and between atheists. |
Again, you're completely misunderstanding. I'm not talking about behavioral differences, but things out of the control of people. Things that would supposedly be wrought by "divine intervention."
At any rate, yes, Christians are just as likely to divorce as Atheists. A recent study conducted by a Christian group (attempting to prove Christians were morally superior, btw), inadvertendly proved the opposite, in that Christians have a little higher divorce rate than atheists.
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Secondly, those who call themselves Christians, yet do not change their behavior, does this call into question the existence of God, or the sinfulness of man? I believe that such 'Christians' have a problem with the latter, rather than the former. |
This is again not the issue, as behavior isn't the issue, it's "Acts of God."
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Before I can answer the question, I need to know what qualifies as 'evidence' of divine intervention in the world. What are your criteria, and your justification for these criteria? |
Pretty easy. Divine intervention would be something wherein the hand of a deity was the only possible explanation for an occurence. And as regards to this debate, it would have to be something specifically occuring in people of one particular faith, but not any other. For instance, claiming "God healed my cancer" as being evidence of divine intervention is faulty, as one could also find people of different faiths or no faith who also went into remission. There would then be no proof their cancer went away through divine means instead of natural ones.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:30
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I can't form a logical sequence of opinions, so:
Sloww (or is it Sloow), I wouldn't worry about Boris too much. My god will take care of him, he is really cool...
God does not interfere with the life of man, though he does work to delay their death...
Also, my god is going to punish the Pope in the afterlife for impersonating a deity and being a flat out hypocrit. I am always amazed at how so many gay ppl are christians, it's such a backwards religion...
I have a good relationship with god, and I don't believe in mass worship or prayer.
My grandfather was a naturalist and he showed me where god was.
Athesists believe in god, they chose to believe he doesn't exist, ergo acknowledging him...
Aye, god exists in the minds of the people, as he was made in our image... Yet, he can manifest himself if people chose to believe. It's a hokey catch-22, but there is no other explination to non-existance.
As a scientist my god is removed from my life. Yet, he is there in an unobtrusive fashion.
My wife is a strong christian, and I am friends with her pastor. He knows what I believe and respects that, but he also believes that I will turn to organized religion one day, and not dwell on my 'pagan' religion as he calls it. I was offended at this, but he is allowed his 'social' god and he allows me mine, so be it, I could care less....
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Boris, I'll argue that one though. If God saved us all the time, then would we ever learn anything? If God saved us all the time, would we deserve it, if we started the whole mess? Maybe God just makes us to face the consequences, like there are to every action. |
This isn't relating to any issue I have. I didn't say God should interfere in every case, if he exists. I just pointed out the logical inconsistency of claiming to believe in an all-powerful God who then is subject to limitations such as time.
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Also in many cases, someones screwing up does good to someone else. And even if the person who has to face the music is good God fearing person, something good and valuable can come out of the situation that would have never come if the person didn't have to go through the difficulties. |
This relies on a completely arbitrary look at why things occur. One can potentially rationalize anything as being ultimately good or bad. But again, that's not the issue--the issue is do people who believe different things get treated differently in a cosmic fashion? There is no evidence they do.
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Also, I remember God promised to save people when they are dead and can join his kindom for afterlife.
I'm not sure if he made any promises for the short waiting period were here on the face of earth? |
Don't you think it's a little too convenient that you have to wait until you die to find out if all the stuff is true and get the reward for being obedient? Since we have no way of knowing what, if anything, happens after death, this is pure conjecture. I think it is evidence that claims of reward were fabricated by men in order to convince people to join their ranks. Such a belief is certainly not evidence of anything being divinely wrought.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
Why would you create a following that stand for something you believe is not true? It's like the Anarchy Party...
Choosing to believe the Easter bunny doesn't exist, is not the same as choosing to believe god does not exist... I can prove the Easter bunny doesn't exist, I know this, because now I hide the eggs for my neices and nephews... First, I thought that was the Easter Bunny's job, but after the third very diappointing year of the damn rabbit not coming by my parents finally told me that he didn't exist and that they had always hid the eggs...
Knowing and believing... two different things. |
On the other hand, you may have, by putting the eggs out yourself, tipped the bunny off to your being a doubter of his existence, so now he refuses to visit your family. Isn't anything possible for a supernatural being?
"Creating a following" is a misnomer. Atheists don't attend atheist churches or the like. Until recently, they didn't gather together at all. Now they do, but it is in response to being hassled for their beliefs by religiouscists. Safety and power in numbers. However, it is still nonsensical to claim that by stating a believe that God doesn't exist, someone is somehow secretly thinking God exists. To put it another way, is a Christian secretly acknowleding Osiris exists when he states he doesn't believe Osiris exists?
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Wernazuma III
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Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
The only thing worse than a religious zealot is an atheist zealot.
Some people have become so fixated on their non-belief in God that they've actually turned it into some kind of bizarro-religion.  |
Welll, not so bizarro, but still for some it has become a belief, although not an organized religion with a certain set of truths written in a book or revealed by some loony.Atheist zealots are not more fixated on their belief than are religious zealots. Zealots are zealots and I don't like them, whether religious or atheist. I don't see a reason for considering the latter worse. And what's so bizarro: To me, it's bizarre that catholics think that at the eucharisty, wine and bread are somehow in a holy way converted to Christ's blood and flesh by the priest. THAT's weird. I could come up with much more for all faiths. Atheism has rarely become bizarre. Maybe the "cult of Reason" during the French Revolution or some social darwinist atheist pseudo-religions or Hitler's "Vorsehung" cult. But essentially, both these phenomena weren't atheist, because "reason" and "vorsehung" were higher powers, i.e. similar to a God concept. So, what's so bizarro-religious about atheist zealots?
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Boris, convinient? We all have a free will. We can believe in what we want to, and according to bible God gave that to us. It's a true tester of belief. We just have to endure bad times sometimes... |
According to the Bible, pi is 3, women should be subserviant to their husbands, it's okay to massacre women and children, bats are birds, etc. How does something in the Bible, a religious text, say anything about the veracity of said religion?
The "convenience" comes because it is in the best interest of those who wish to control populations to keep them in line by any means most efficient. Promising eternal paradise after one dies, a promise that requires no evidence, or eternal flames based on what one says or does is very convenient to such people.
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01-08-2003 20:45
smilie. Have we no standards anymore! 
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