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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
So do I, and that's why God showed me already.
But if I say that you claim that I'm nuts. |
 When did I claim such a thing? I suggest you read more carefully, since I explicitley stated I have no problem with people having religious faith in their hearts. Thanks for the strawman, though.
quote:
Pretty strange way of reasoning.
First you say I'm an idiot for believing something I won't know until the end, but if I claim I already know I'm an idiot as well. |
And when did I say any of these things? I certainly did not, and your accusing me of such is slander. Is this what Christianity teaches you?
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In fact I'm just an idiot if I don't believe the same thing you believe. Which is just plain fundamentalistic.
I thought nobody thought that way anymore since the middle ages. |
I now have every reason to conclude your spiritual revelations are either lies or hallucinations, since you have just conjured up a fantasy of what I have said. Where did I say any of this? Nowhere. I explicitely stated the contrary. This is pretty shameful of you.
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According to the Bible, pi is 3, women should be subserviant to their husbands, |
The bible has been written by people.
And of course the cultural environment got it's place in the Bible. |
I'm aware of that, I agree, and that is why I believe unwavering acceptance of the Bible and what it says is unwise.
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it's okay to massacre women and children |
it doesn't teach that. |
Oh? Pray tell, how do you explain God ordering the Israelites to slaughter women and children of foreign tribes? He does, and they carry out his orders. If you don't believe those events are true, fine, but that doesn't change the fact that they are in the Bible. If you're going to say such massacres were not okay, then you have to square that with them having been ordered by God, and can he order something which isn't okay?
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mrmitchell
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There is no scientific evidence to support God.
However, on the other hand, religion can be a great inspiration to the world. (It can also be a terrible murderer.)
Thus, it can be assumed that even for all the good inspiration religion creates, it is better that it not be around. It creates more than enough fundie dumbasses. It is better that humanity uses its own advancement as an inspiration rather than a fear of a vengeful God, or vain hope that they will be rewarded.
(Did I mention that the scientific evidence is stacked in favor of a God not existing?)
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
Of course there is speculation, but remember my speculation was just a response to your speculation. |
Great! I'm glad you acknowledge it is nothing more than speculation.
quote:
I think you don't understand the problem of North Ireland. It's not a religional conflict. It's a conflict about power, and both groups use their 'religion' against the other group. Like they both use palastinian and israelian flags while none of them are palastinian or israelian. |
While politics are certainly a huge part of it, I think your dismissal of the religious aspect is an unfounded dismissal. I've noticed this tendency amongst a lot of religiouscists, to basically claim all religious strife is really about something else. How about the levels of intolerance and hatred of Catholics by evangelical Christians, and vice-versa? You think that's not religously-centered strife?
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That's what I say.
The christian faith doesn't push any culture or way of living to it's believers. |
Which has nothing to do with any empiric claims of quantitative difference between the cosmic occurances of Christians vs. anyone else. Differences relating to beliefs and behavior aren't what we're talking about here, it's divine intervention vs. cosmic chance. This is all tangental.
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It's not. All muslims have to live to their 5 pilars (or whatever it's named)
Indeed, hindus live a very other way, but that believe system isn't centered around a god. |
And this is not indicative that they all live culturally alike. Do Jews all live culturally alike? Is Al Franken living the same cultural existence as an orthodox Jew in Brooklyn? Certainly not. This shows some appalling ignorance on your part of how Muslim-American live as opposed to, say, the Taliban. Do you really think their lives are culturally similar? That is unimaginable.
All Christians are expected to live by some basic Christian doctrines--that's what makes them Christian, after all. Why is Muslims doing the same somehow proof it's a monolithic culture? If it were, why are the Sunnis ans Shiites fighting each other?
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Read the Bible, read the Koran, read whatever religious scripture there is.
Read what is says about people, about the future (the current time) and see which one is the truth.
Of course your mind must be open to really find the truth.
Nobody will find the truth if (s)he doesn't want one particular truth to be the truth. |
Again, this is basing truth on gut feeling and emotional speculation. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. I've read the Bible, it doesn't speak to me in nearly the same way that listening to a Mahler adagio does. I find it patently absurd, personally. I can think of other religious tenets that are far more hopeful about the future, from my perspective (New Age, for example). I don't put any stock in them, because I refuse to accept notions of supernatural powers just because I selfishly may want to believe in them.
I think it would be great if there was a big, loving entity who would give us all lollipops after we die. I just don't see any proof of it.
All of this continues to be a sidestep of the basic point, which is that belief appears to have no cosmic difference in one's life, since the same cosmic events occur to people regardless of what they believe. Ergo belief in a deity will not effect one's life beyond the difference it may make in one's perceptions and attitudes. Since I am quite comfortable with my perceptions and attitudes as they are (despite attempts to slander them), I see no need for belief in a deity at the moment.
Last edited by Boris Godunov on 02-08-2003 at 03:56
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Rogan Josh
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Hmm... I have no proof that Fez exists. Therefore he doesn't exist! Thank God!
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:30
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quote:
CyberShy: The jewish people are the only people who got after 2000 years their country back, as being forseen by biblical prophets. |
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Boris: Patent nonsense. There is no way of knowing that, if God doesn't exist, things wouldn't have turned out just the same. |
That's true, but you can't deny that Israel and the jewish people are taking a special position in the world's history and in the current global situation.
So far the Biblical plot is still working, even after 2000 years.
I see that this isn't 100% waterproof evidence, but it is a big plus for the Bible, you can't deny that.
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What about the multitude of prophecies that weren't fulfilled or were flat out wrong? |
There are no prophecies that have been factually wrong.
There are several prophecies that are according to some opintions wrong, but that's more due to differences in interpertation of the prophecy.
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You can't just take one prophecy that appears to have been fulfilled and use that as a kind of evidence, |
It's not one. Much prophecies about the reforming of Israel have been fulfilled.
It's been said that the jewish people from the west and the east would return without problem while the jewish people from the north (Russia) and the south (ethiophie) would face big troubles.
It's been said that the Jewish people would be scattered all over the world, and they would be hated and persecuted for ages.
It has been said that the jewish people would be famous for their financial intellect and their big cultural influence.
It's been said that Jerusalem would be a major world problem about which all world-leaders would have opinions and arguments.
It's been said that people from all over the world, jewish and non-jewish would come to Jerusalem to pray.
All those things have been forseen before islam came to be. Before the jews even knew that their faith would be for all people. (they thought it was just for them)
Not to talk about the prophecies about the world being more and more global-centered.
Easy communication and traveling.
Weapons of mass destruction.
Individualism and a self centered way of living.
Fall down of morals. (if you like these morals or not, they have been fallen down for sure)
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because unless ALL the prophecies get fulfilled, it proves nothing. It's just speculating about something that could be a result of chance. |
Even if all prophecies would be fulfilled, it could be because of a result of change. It'll never be 100% proof. But eventhough it 'll never be, it still can show you that the Bible appears to be right most of the time.
And I disagree with you that there are prophecies that haven't been fulfilled and will never be fulfilled.
We can argue about that, but it'll come down to difference of interpertation.
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When did I claim such a thing? I suggest you read more carefully, since I explicitley stated I have no problem with people having religious faith in their hearts. Thanks for the strawman, though. |
quote:
And when did I say any of these things? I certainly did not, and your accusing me of such is slander. Is this what Christianity teaches you? |
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now have every reason to conclude your spiritual revelations are either lies or hallucinations, since you have just conjured up a fantasy of what I have said. Where did I say any of this? Nowhere. I explicitely stated the contrary. This is pretty shameful of you. |
I'm sorry, I did indeed put you words in your mouth you haven't spoken.
I have to say that the way you have reacted on it (3 times) isn't very friendly either.
But that's your responsibility, mine is that I did indeed not have the right to say that and I'm sorry for doing.
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I'm aware of that, I agree, and that is why I believe unwavering acceptance of the Bible and what it says is unwise. |
That's the wrong conclusion.
If you're aware of the Biblical cultural / social context you can learn much from it.
You just should not copy the cultural environment to ours. (which is unfortunately done by many christians)
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Oh? Pray tell, how do you explain God ordering the Israelites to slaughter women and children of foreign tribes? He does, and they carry out his orders. |
1. He doesn't order us to do that.
2. If he does it's a result of the sins of these people. in other words, it's a punishment.
3. it's a complete different cultural environment. If you don't kill your enemies, they'll kill you.
Modern diplomatic rules didn't apply, remember.
You may disagree with that, and in fact it's very hard for me to accept as well.
But it's not as if God is a cruel God because of that.
Besides that, like I said, God doesn't tell us we should behave this way. It's not as if we, christians, should slaughter everybody who disagrees.
The christian faith doesn't know the jihad.
It says we should turn the other cheek. (eventhough I have to admit I never did)
quote:
Great! I'm glad you acknowledge it is nothing more than speculation. |
All rational arguments we trow in the (a)theist debate are speculation. We can never be sure on facts or something.
That counts for me, but it counts for atheists as well.
Most of the time atheists though think that facts and arguments are on their side.
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:30
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quote:
Boris: While politics are certainly a huge part of it, I think your dismissal of the religious aspect is an unfounded dismissal. I've noticed this tendency amongst a lot of religiouscists, to basically claim all religious strife is really about something else. How about the levels of intolerance and hatred of Catholics by evangelical Christians, and vice-versa? You think that's not religously-centered strife? |
First about North Ireland:
that conflict is not religious. period.
They use their religions for polarisation.
My wife has been there, she's a journalist and wrote an article about the issue. She talked to an ex-catholic terrorist and to an ex-protestant terrorist. Both said that religion didn't mean much more than cultural polarisation to them. In fact they didn't knew what their 'believe' was about.
About the rest of your message,
yes, there are christians and groups of christians who do hate certain groups of people etc.
People do misuse religion for hate and intolerance.
Like people use democracy and freedom of speech as well. I'm aware of that and I'm pretty sad about that.
But it just shows what I said before and what is being teached by the bible. All people are sinners, and christians are people. And thus do sin for sure.
quote:
And this is not indicative that they all live culturally alike. Do Jews all live culturally alike? Is Al Franken living the same cultural existence as an orthodox Jew in Brooklyn? Certainly not. This shows some appalling ignorance on your part of how Muslim-American live as opposed to, say, the Taliban. Do you really think their lives are culturally similar? That is unimaginable. |
Something being cultural similar isn't the same as sharing pieces of culture.
Take the way muslim-women have to dress.
Of course there are muslims who are not very strict on it, but there's no doubt that there are strict rules written in the Koran.
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CS: Read the Bible, read the Koran, read whatever religious scripture there is.
Read what is says about people, about the future (the current time) and see which one is the truth.
Of course your mind must be open to really find the truth. |
quote:
Again, this is basing truth on gut feeling and emotional speculation. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. I've read the Bible, it doesn't speak to me in nearly the same way that listening to a Mahler adagio does. |
I'm sorry to hear that.
I can't push my believe up to you.
I wish you would see it the same way as I do. Not because I want to right, but because I wish you would feel like I do about life.
You say you find more hope in new-age.
New age more or less teaches that this world would be a better place if we would all each other. (very very very simplistic said)
I share that teaching, I think it's a very hopefull message.
But is it true?
It's true that it would be a better world in that situation indeed. But will it be possible to achive?
Do you think that humanity will be able to selflessly love?
Pherhaps the Bible doesn't bring a message which sounds great and cool.
But what's more important, a good looking fairy tale or the truth?
If the truth is that humanity is incapable of making a better world in any way, than that's not a good message. But if that's the truth, there is no better message though.
Thus the question to you would be,
do you prefer new-age because of what it promises, or because you think it's possible?
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:30
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quote:
The Templar: But Christians do have the Crusades, Inquisitions, Witchhunts, and forced conversions. Christians have rarely (if ever) turned the other cheek. The practice of Christianity has had little to do with the teachings of Jesus. |
Unfortunately that's true.
Christians aren't any better than any other people.
There are christians who did turn the other cheek.
Like there are humanists who do.
The Bible doesn't teach that christians are better people.
It teaches that humanity isn't capable of being 'better'.
Pherhaps we'd rather hear the message that we can become better by doing this or doing that.
I can't live any life that will make me rightious.
But I do believe though that God Himself came as a human, Jesus, to live the better life, and to take my sins and to be punished in my place.
What I can't achive has been achived by God Himself.
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Of course, if I asked you to prove the non-existence of unicorns in the universe you would be ****ed given the sheer size of the universe. |
You can't compare unicorns with God.
- People died because they believed in God. Nobody died because they believed in unicorns.
- There hasn't been the slightiest sign of any Unicorn. God at least has given miracles, the Bible, etc. etc. Pherhaps that's all been made up as well, but it's allways more than the unicorn.
- Nobody believes in the unicorn, billions believe in God.
I can't believe there is no unicorn, but it's not on the same level as God.
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The Templar
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People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
That is not Christianity. If I were to commit mass murder in the name of capitalism, would it make capilalism evil? |
Hmm, Vel is always arguing with me that communism is evil because its implementation has created far more evil than good in the world ...
At any rate, it shows that the practice of Christianity has been pretty bad over the ages. Very out of step with the theology or "truth" of Christianity.
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That is not true. The Christian God of the Bible cannot be disproven and I would not call Him 'thin'. In fact He has been 'packing them in' for almost 2000 years now. |
Why is God supposedly a He? If God is omnipotent, couldn't God also be a She if God wants? I prefer 'It' (with the upper case 'I') for God - unless of course 'God' is some sort of third-person divine pronoun ...
At any rate, talking snakes, towers to heaven, the universe created in 6 days, a flood that wipes out all flesh except two of each kind of animal (inbreeding problems?), and best of all - a God that loves all people, but if you don't believe in It you burn in hell for all eternity. This all sounds inconsistent at best and completely hokey at worst.
Are you ****ing serious that this can't be disproven? Show me one talking snake! Explain how Hell fits in with God's infinite goodness and compassion.
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Proteus_MST
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
But would millions of people die for a belief that they knew was false? I doubt it. |
Reminds me of the Chines Boxer uprising and the Uprising of the Zulu.
In both Cases people believed that they were gifted by Invulnerability against the Bullets from european Muskets or Rifles.
In Case of the Boxers it was, that they believed, they had attained a Level of Kung Fu, which allowed them to be invulnerable against Weapons, including Projectiles, in Case of the Zulu AFAIK it was, because their Shamans had cast a Spell of Invulnerability upon them.
In both cases the people died for their belief (although they wreaked some Havoc amongst the Enemies, especially in case of the Zulu [but the Losses amongst the Zulu/Boxer were in every case much higher, than in case of the Europeans]).
I thijnk there was also a Cese in America, where the American Indians believed to be invulnerable agajínst the Bullets of the American Cavalry because of the great Ghost Dance and paid with their blood for this belief.
Andf today there are people, who fly planmes into Scyscrapers because they believe, that they will afterwards be in Heaven with a lot of virgins and also People who readily sacrify themselfes by becoming living Bombs against unbelieving Oppressors (also calles Israelis) also, because they believe, that their work is somhow honored by some kind of higher being.
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02-08-2003 03:16
) which created earth and every animal or Plant upon it 6000 years ago, but at something which is inherent within the Univrse and the natural laws.
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