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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
Not for the US, but I may be wrong. |
There were approximately 115,000 US deaths in WW1.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
I mean attacking Uboats, escorting convoys, radioing Uboat positions to the Brits, giving military equipment to the Brits, placing embargos on the Japanese, etc. |
So we shouldn't help our allies. Gotcha! 
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Japan probably couldn't have even invaded and held Hawaii, much less the Continental US. Don't be ridiculous. |
After they were finished raping China, where the hell do you think they'd go? Who is the biggest threat to their Empire? USA!!! duhhhh
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Hitler at no point had anywhere near the capability to defeat the RAF and RN, and invade England. |
Because of US help
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Not the defense of the UK.
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Yeah, read a few books and learn about the sheer immensity of support the US gave Britain before officially entering the war. The US was pumping out Liberty ships and supporting the UK. Without the US, the UK would have been slowly starved into submission
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Oh, absolutely not. But I won't feel sorry for the Soviets, one of the most brutal regimes of all time.
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You don't have to feel sorry for Stalin, but rather the millions of innocent Russian that were killed by the Nazis
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Japan getting the bomb? 
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The US sunk German U-boats loaded with U-235. German scientists were sharing nuclear technologies with Japan
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As for Germany, the Germans were nowhere near building the bomb, or even being able to build the technology they would need to build more technology in order to build an atomic bomb. Hitler didn't care about it, and put his resources into other areas. Germany had no uranium or plutonium, and the British destroyed the last of the heavy water supplies in raids. |
Russia got the bomb in 1947. Germany was ahead of Russia in bomb development. Without defeating the Nazis, they would have gotten the bomb.
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They were certainly threats, just not to the United States. Neither had the capability to invade the US. To build that capability, both would have had to conquer their intended empires, and build up for decades. Of course, if the US got the atomic bomb before this point, which is virtually certain, then the game would have been up anyway. |
Oh great, so we could have had a Cold War against the Nazis rather than defeating those murderous *******s. That's a world I'd rather live in. Let me ask you Floyd, do you think the world be better off if the US had followed your advice?
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Hell, the Germans couldn't even invade England, and the Japanese would have been hard pressed to go after India and Australia, so I fail to see your point. |
The Germans didn't invade England because they were fought back by the US and US-supported Britain.
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Odin
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Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Japan probably couldn't have even invaded and held Hawaii, much less the Continental US. Don't be ridiculous. |
Pearl Harbor
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Hitler at no point had anywhere near the capability to defeat the RAF and RN, and invade England. |
That is because we helped them, Einstien.
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Japan getting the bomb?
As for Germany, the Germans were nowhere near building the bomb, or even being able to build the technology they would need to build more technology in order to build an atomic bomb. Hitler didn't care about it, and put his resources into other areas. Germany had no uranium or plutonium, and the British destroyed the last of the heavy water supplies in raids.
They were certainly threats, just not to the United States. Neither had the capability to invade the US. To build that capability, both would have had to conquer their intended empires, and build up for decades. Of course, if the US got the atomic bomb before this point, which is virtually certain, then the game would have been up anyway.
Hell, the Germans couldn't even invade England, and the Japanese would have been hard pressed to go after India and Australia, so I fail to see your point. |
Both Japan and Germany were working on the Bomb. I have relatives in Norway who helped sabotage thier facillities in '44, bad BAM.  They certainly were threats to the US. Would you of liked to take on The axis powers when they conqured ALL of Eurasia, Australia, the Pacific, and Northern Africa?  We would of had to of dealt with them eventually, it was just a question of when.
Isolationist = WUSS!!! 
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
So we shouldn't help our allies. Gotcha! |
We weren't allied with the UK at the time 
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After they were finished raping China, where the hell do you think they'd go? |
Most of them would be on occupation duty throughout their empire, especially a place with half a billion people called China
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Who is the biggest threat to their Empire? USA!!! duhhhh |
Why would the US be a threat to the GEACPS?
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Yeah, read a few books and learn about the sheer immensity of support the US gave Britain before officially entering the war. The US was pumping out Liberty ships and supporting the UK. Without the US, the UK would have been slowly starved into submission |
Sorry, the UK defeated the Uboats, not the US. The Battle of the Atlantic was won in 1942, pretty much by the UK and things such as the ASDIC.
Sorry, the Battle of Britain was over in September of 1940.
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You don't have to feel sorry for Stalin, but rather the millions of innocent Russian that were killed by the Nazis |
Stalin probably would have killed half of them anyway, but either way, this isn't any reason for the US to join the war.
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The US sunk German U-boats loaded with U-235. German scientists were sharing nuclear technologies with Japan |
Oh, Japan might have built a bomb - around 1960
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Russia got the bomb in 1947. |
Sorry, 1949. And this only because of espionage in the Manhatten Project.
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Germany was ahead of Russia in bomb development. |
Sure, but they did not have the benefit of agents in the Manhatten Project or the US government, at least not agents in a position to help them. Not to mention the fact that Hitler did not make it a priority.
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Oh great, so we could have had a Cold War against the Nazis rather than defeating those murderous *******s. |
We had a Cold War with the Soviets, anyway 
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The Germans didn't invade England because they were fought back by the US and US-supported Britain. |
No, they didn't invade England because the RAF defeated the Luftwaffe, and because the Kriegsmarine didn't have enough amphibious assets to mount an invasion, anyway.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
We weren't allied with the UK at the time |
Debatable... perhaps not official military allies... but they were our friends, asked for our help, and we delivered.
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Most of them would be on occupation duty throughout their empire, especially a place with half a billion people called China |
They would have exterminated most of the Chinese. Do you recall the rape of Nanking?
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Why would the US be a threat to the GEACPS?
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We were perceived as one
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Sorry, the UK defeated the Uboats, not the US. The Battle of the Atlantic was won in 1942, pretty much by the UK and things such as the ASDIC.
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The US was involved from day 1... September 3rd, 1939... half of Britains food and two-thirds of the UK's raw materials were imports. http://www.iwm.org.uk/online/atlantic/overview.htm
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Sorry, the Battle of Britain was over in September of 1940.
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WIth the help of American, Polish, Czech, and South African pilots. Britain had only a few hundred airmen in 1940.
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Stalin probably would have killed half of them anyway, but either way, this isn't any reason for the US to join the war. |
That's right, and as a good Christian, you believe we have no obligation to stop mass murder on a global scale.
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Oh, Japan might have built a bomb - around 1960
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Sooner than the Russians.
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Sorry, 1949. And this only because of espionage in the Manhatten Project.
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Oops, I made a mistake. But what's to say the Germans or Japanese wouldn't have been able to do the same?
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Sure, but they did not have the benefit of agents in the Manhatten Project or the US government, at least not agents in a position to help them. Not to mention the fact that Hitler did not make it a priority. |
Had Hitler had more time, there's no telling what he would have been able to build.
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We had a Cold War with the Soviets, anyway
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And it's a miracle we're all still here. Personally, I don't like the idea of a 50 year long nuclear standoff with a Nazi Empire... but maybe that's part of David Floyd's ideal world.
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No, they didn't invade England because the RAF defeated the Luftwaffe, and because the Kriegsmarine didn't have enough amphibious assets to mount an invasion, anyway. |
Britain would have been starved into submission.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Debatable... perhaps not official military allies... but they were our friends, asked for our help, and we delivered. |
It's not debatable at all. Not only was the US not allied with the UK, but the US had war plans for fighting the UK/RN.
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They would have exterminated most of the Chinese. Do you recall the rape of Nanking? |
Sure, and I also know that systematic extermination of all Chinese would have been impossible. In any case, this would have taken decades.
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We were perceived as one |
Sure, because of our hostile acts
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The US was involved from day 1... September 3rd, 1939... half of Britains food and two-thirds of the UK's raw materials were imports. |
Sure, but not all came from the US. Nickel supplies came from Canada, rubber came from the Far East, oil came from the Middle East, etc.
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WIth the help of American, Polish, Czech, and South African pilots. Britain had only a few hundred airmen in 1940. |
This is laughable. Not only did the Brits have plenty of pilots, but they were producing new pilots much faster than Germany, as well as being able to rescue their downed airmen much easier than the Germans could rescue theirs. I'll cite plenty of sources if you need me to, but if you don't know this, then you shouldn't even be discussing the subject.
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That's right, and as a good Christian, you believe we have no obligation to stop mass murder on a global scale. |
There is never an obligation to force others to fight, or to take their money in order to help you to fight, no.
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Sooner than the Russians. |
You are unqualified to discuss the subject if you believe the Japanese would have had an atomic bomb prior to 1949.
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Oops, I made a mistake. But what's to say the Germans or Japanese wouldn't have been able to do the same? |
Because the Germans managed to get the vast majority of their agents caught very early in the war, and never once achieved penetration or anything close to it of the Manhatten Project.
As for the Japanese, this is even more laughable. They weren't gonna penetrate anything. The US, at one point or another, broke every single major Japanese code.
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Had Hitler had more time, there's no telling what he would have been able to build. |
He had to have the resources, facilities, and enough competent atomic scientists, and he had to have enough of these to get the bomb sooner than the US. This was just NOT going to happen, PERIOD.
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And it's a miracle we're all still here. Personally, I don't like the idea of a 50 year long nuclear standoff with a Nazi Empire... |
And I don't like the thought of a 50 year standoff with the Soviets, but what's the difference? In any case, it would have come down to a US nuclear monopoly for years, and when Germany finally built an atomic bomb, it would have turned into MAD. The isolationist US wouldn't have been fighting silly little wars like Korea or Vietnam, and certainly would have had no presence in Europe.
But this is all elementary, because I don't think the Germans could have even successfully invaded England, even if they conquered Russia.
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Britain would have been starved into submission. |
Again, this isn't true. The Royal Navy, with LIMITED US aid, defeated the major Uboat threat in 1942. In any case, Britain couldn't have been starved prior to the historical defeat of the Uboats (because it didn't historically happen, duh), nor for a long time after, so if you want to play that game, I'll just say that the British would have begun a massive bomber offensive against the Uboat ports on the French Atlantic coast, and, who knows, maybe even some small scale raids with the aim of destroying Uboat facilities.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Someone brought up FDR as a good president. I refuted, and so on it went.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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No, it just means you don't know what you're talking about, by and large.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
I was under the impression that Japan's plan was to cripple the US fleet so that the US would be forced to accept Japanese imperialism in Asia at the negociation table (and possibly give the Philippines and other Pacific assets).
I fail to see why the Japanese would have tried to invade the powerful, well defended and faraway US, since they were taking all the resources they needed from the coprosperity sphere. |
Bingo.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
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Now, Odin:
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Scrap it. It is vauge enogh that people twist the wording to fit thier side (the 2nd amendment for example). Things I would like in a new constitution:
It must must clearly state that seperation of church and state MUST be inforced, no "in God we trust", or "so help me God" crap should be allowed in the government, Schools must be religion free, Judeo-Christian Mythology should belong IN a mythology class, not in other classes.
NO subsidies should be allowed.
Direct presidential vote.
Campaign contributions cannot exceed $3,000 per person. Soft Money is totally banned. The max campagn $ per person is agusted every year for inflation.
Replace the original Senate with a Senate based on preportional representation, like in many European countries.
SC justices can serve no more than 10 years.
The budget MUST be approved by popular referendum in both Federal and State. Every household gets a copy of the buget 2 weeks before it is voted on. |
Doesn't the vagueness work AGAINST your favor? It is vague so it can be adapted to modern times, change with the people, that sort of stuff. Would you rather make it more rigid and have a Constitutional convention ever 25 years (which would tend to paralyze things, IMO).
As for Chuch and State, do you mean to tell me that you would FINE those officials that said 'so help me God' in a speech? What ever happened to free speech? As for schools being religion-free, does this mean teachers cannot wear crosses or Stars of David as necklaces? What ever happened to freedom of religious expression? And what would happen when 90% of the class missed school for a religious holiday like Christmas? Do you go on with the 3 people there?
Does no subsides also mean no subsidies to individuals? Welfare is technically a subsidy  .
Do you REALLY want to put how much money someone can give in a Constitution?! What if people decide that is too much? They can't lower the limit without Amendment? What if the people decide on direct public financing? Amendment time again?
If SC Justices serve 10 years doesn't that mean they will rule according to the current political climate and not what the law means? Doesn't this also mean that the SC becomes a greater political body and thus their decisions shoudn't be really followed because the next one 10 years down the road will reverse this decision?
Approving budgets by popular referendum is DUMB! The cost, first, would astronomical. The budget today is incredibly large and specific. Secondly, to have every American understand the budget he'd have to have training in economics or accounting (as do the Congressional aides that tell the Congressmen what is there), and even then, he might not know what the Hell he's voting for. Third, that would create massive problems if the people continuely rejected budgets. Government workers would stop getting paid after like the third one, and what would be the reason for the people actually approving one, once this happened?
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05-08-2003 06:53
They may even could of completely distroyed most of our pacific navy and the west coast would be very vulnerable.
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