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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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So Floyd's doctrine says he give in to murderous dictators and regimes. |
First of all, I was responding to his post about Japan's intent in the war. Secondly, what does "giving in to murderous dictators and regimes" mean? It certainly doesn't mean that the US won't defend itself, and it certainly doesn't mean the US won't say those regimes are wrong.
Now, I won't force anyone to pay for a war they don't support, or force them to fight in a war they don't support, but that is hardly giving in. That is taking and keeping the moral high ground.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
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Cinch: hehe... sorry for missing you guys.
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First of all, I was responding to his post about Japan's intent in the war. Secondly, what does "giving in to murderous dictators and regimes" mean? It certainly doesn't mean that the US won't defend itself, and it certainly doesn't mean the US won't say those regimes are wrong. |
It is in the US's best interests that murderous dictators and empires don't rival US supremacy. And by failing to stop those empires and regimes from expanding, you are allowing them to gain strength and threaten peace and freedom. Perhaps an experience in a WW2 POW camp would open your eyes. You live in America and enjoy freedom, but don't feel you have any responsiblity to protect or contribute to the protection of it. Freedom isn't free.
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Now, I won't force anyone to pay for a war they don't support, or force them to fight in a war they don't support, but that is hardly giving in. That is taking and keeping the moral high ground. |
There's a difference between a just and unjust war. I opposed current military action in Iraq because I feel it's unnecessary and not the best course of action for removing Saddam and bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq. But the goal of defeating Saddam is sound and moral. WW2 was no question. You may feel safe and secure in Texas, because Europe is so far away. But the world is a small place. And if tyrants and evil people are allowed to control empires, your freedoms will be threatened. You not only have a responsibility to your country/society/nation; you have a responsibility to your descendents to do what's best for the world. Defeating Nazism and Imperial Japan was the right thing to do. I hope that one day you will see the light.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
It is in the US's best interests that murderous dictators and empires don't rival US supremacy. |
In what way was the US supreme in 1939? Let's see, it's military ranked below that of Portugal's, it's army air corps was virtually non-existent, and it's armor doctrines were far below those of the major powers. It's navy was nice, of course, but certainly not supreme. The US had the biggest economy in the world, but other nations were spending far more on defense.
The US was supreme in 1945, not in 1939, and it was supreme as a result of its war effort - it didn't fight the war to retain superiority 
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And by failing to stop those empires and regimes from expanding, you are allowing them to gain strength and threaten peace and freedom. |
Yes, but not the peace and freedom as they relate to the US. Further, it is incoherent to promote peace and freedom to start a war supported by conscription.
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Perhaps an experience in a WW2 POW camp would open your eyes. You live in America and enjoy freedom, but don't feel you have any responsiblity to protect or contribute to the protection of it. Freedom isn't free. |
I'm sorry, I thought we were debating WW2, not any supposed obligation to society.
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There's a difference between a just and unjust war. |
Sure. A just war is fought in self defense, and immoral means are not used to fight the war.
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But the goal of defeating Saddam is sound and moral. |
Sure, but the goal of defeating Saddam by forcing me to participate, killing Iraqi conscripts, and occupying Iraq is far from moral.
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WW2 was no question. You may feel safe and secure in Texas, because Europe is so far away. But the world is a small place. |
The size of the world is irrelevant to the fact that Germany and Japan did not have the capability to invade, out-research, or out-produce the United States.
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And if tyrants and evil people are allowed to control empires, your freedoms will be threatened. |
A madman controlling a nation does not equate to that nation suddenly becoming threatening to me. It wouldn't matter WHO was in charge of Germany, it STILL couldn't have invaded the US.
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You not only have a responsibility to your country/society/nation; |
What does this have to do with anything?
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you have a responsibility to your descendents to do what's best for the world. |
Now, I have responsibilities to people who are not even born yet, and may never be?
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Defeating Nazism and Imperial Japan was the right thing to do. |
But bombing civilians, forcing Americans to fight and fund the war, internment of Japanese-Americans, etc., were WRONG. The ends do not justify the means.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Hindsight is 20/20 DF, people were hysterical after Pearl Harbor. I don't agee with it, but you have to rember the social climate then. People on the weast coast were deathly afraid that there were spies there. |
And on the same token, the "social climate" of Germany made it OK to exclude the Jews and continually violate their rights. Was this fine, too?
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I also think people were telling him that the camps wern't as bad as they actually were, (I don't know if that is the case, but is a logical guess because I highly doubt he would of condoned such treatment). |
That's pretty interesting, considering the fact that at Tehran, FDR and Stalin talked openly about simply shooting the entire German officer corps after the war to destroy "Prussian militarism".
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Sava, I am glad that you stopped talking about the actual war, though - it's saving me the trouble of rebutting you on that subject.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Sure, for a moral relativist. But moral relativity is incoherent.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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No it isn't, but unless you want us to threadjack this AGAIN, maybe we should save that for later.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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Imran, was the Holocaust wrong, or was it perfectly acceptable behavior?
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
In what way was the US supreme in 1939? Let's see, it's military ranked below that of Portugal's, it's army air corps was virtually non-existent, and it's armor doctrines were far below those of the major powers. It's navy was nice, of course, but certainly not supreme. The US had the biggest economy in the world, but other nations were spending far more on defense.
The US was supreme in 1945, not in 1939, and it was supreme as a result of its war effort - it didn't fight the war to retain superiority
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I never said it did.
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Yes, but not the peace and freedom as they relate to the US. Further, it is incoherent to promote peace and freedom to start a war supported by conscription. |
WW2 wasn't about mass conscription to fight a foreign war. All of America willingly helped the war effort.
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I'm sorry, I thought we were debating WW2, not any supposed obligation to society. |
They are related issues
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Sure. A just war is fought in self defense, and immoral means are not used to fight the war. |
War is fought and won by all means necessary. Doing the necessary evil, is not evil itself.
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Sure, but the goal of defeating Saddam by forcing me to participate, killing Iraqi conscripts, and occupying Iraq is far from moral. |
Which is part of the reason I did not support GW2.
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The size of the world is irrelevant to the fact that Germany and Japan did not have the capability to invade, out-research, or out-produce the United States. |
Given time, they might have. I don't feel like rolling the dice.
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A madman controlling a nation does not equate to that nation suddenly becoming threatening to me. It wouldn't matter WHO was in charge of Germany, it STILL couldn't have invaded the US. |
Again, given time. And who says invasion would have been the be all end all of such an alternate conflict. Perhaps Germany builds a long-range bomber fleet and carpet bombs New York and Washington. What then genius?
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What does this have to do with anything?
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Because you think it's immoral for society to make you live up to your responsibilities.
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Now, I have responsibilities to people who are not even born yet, and may never be? |
Yes... not to specific individuals, but to humanity itself.
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But bombing civilians, forcing Americans to fight and fund the war, internment of Japanese-Americans, etc., were WRONG. The ends do not justify the means. |
I am opposed to the targeting of civilians, etc... as long as it is not necessary to winning the war. The bombing of Dresden was unnecessary and vengeful. But the overall war was just and the overall ends did justify the means.
The Japanese question is a cumbersome one. I do not know enough about the security situation at the time. But, if a substantial population is a threat to national security, all means are necessary to ensure that the threat is minimized in the most humane way as possible. I would have interned the Japanese-Americans if the evidence was there to support it. But I would have ensured that the quality of the internment would be higher than what it was.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
No, that's an absolute statement... NOT a moral absolute.. |
Wrong. Absolute statements, when discussing morality, translate into moral absolutes.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
WW2 wasn't about mass conscription to fight a foreign war. All of America willingly helped the war effort. |
Then why was conscription in place?
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They are related issues |
Not really. I'm saying that the US shouldn't have fought in the war, you are saying that there is an obligation to support your society. Those are unrelated.
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War is fought and won by all means necessary. Doing the necessary evil, is not evil itself. |
So you think the ends justify the means, then.
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Given time, they might have. I don't feel like rolling the dice. |
Given time, sure, you never know. But in that time, the US would have developed atomic weapons, and would have retained an atomic monopoly for years. If the Soviets didn't have agents within the Manhatten Project, the US would have retained its atomic monopoly much longer.
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Perhaps Germany builds a long-range bomber fleet and carpet bombs New York and Washington. |
Yes, perhaps 10-15 years down the road Germany would have had thousands of intercontinental bombers. Too bad US fighter jets would have ripped them to shreds.
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Because you think it's immoral for society to make you live up to your responsibilities. |
I think you haven't even made a coherent statement as to what those responsibilities are, nor have you backed up that non-existent statement.
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But the overall war was just and the overall ends did justify the means. |
Then why would you oppose targeting civilians? Killing civilians prevents them from supporting the war effort, right?
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The Japanese question is a cumbersome one. I do not know enough about the security situation at the time. But, if a substantial population is a threat to national security, all means are necessary to ensure that the threat is minimized in the most humane way as possible. |
Well, Germany felt that the Jews and other ethnic minorities were a threat, so they trampled all over their rights and put them in concentration camps. Do you have trouble saying whether or not this is wrong, too?
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cinch
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
In what way was the US supreme in 1939? Let's see, it's military ranked below that of Portugal's, it's army air corps was virtually non-existent, and it's armor doctrines were far below those of the major powers. It's navy was nice, of course, but certainly not supreme. The US had the biggest economy in the world, but other nations were spending far more on defense.
The US was supreme in 1945, not in 1939, and it was supreme as a result of its war effort - it didn't fight the war to retain superiority
....
The size of the world is irrelevant to the fact that Germany and Japan did not have the capability to invade, out-research, or out-produce the United States.
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Those two statements seem almost contradictory.
America would not have become the great power (militarily speaking) it was/is without World War 2. You say this, and I agree.
So, if the U.S. had stayed out of it, and focused on internal matters, reason dictates that it would still have had a paltry military by the end of European and/or Pacific hostilities.
Germany and Japan may not have had the capabilities to invade the war-strengthened U.S., but they might have been able to handle the sub-Portugal "lesser" America that would be produced by isolationism... No?
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05-08-2003 08:07
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If he wouldent of died of a riptured blood vessel in his brain he might of got elected for a 5th term in 1948. (Truman sucked 
). He had a few slip-ups (japanese prison camps and not taking a harder line with Stalin), but that was peanuts compared to the good he did for America. He made those Supply-siders shut up. 
Sure it was repealed - but it's still part of the text. How embarassing 
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