06-08-2003 23:10									#1
	Operation: Glorious Plastic Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

This thread is for all discussion related to Op:GloPla, the planned Bobian intervention. Battle plans, overall strategic discussion, and operation-specific build orders should be covered here as well.

	07-08-2003 01:16									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Vondrack Our first expeditionary troops (1 elite knight + 2 vets) should - if everything goes according to the current plan - sail off in 5 turns from Zargonia. Then ~5-7 turns to land, depending on where the troops will be heading. The other group (3 vet knights) will land in the North, near Trafalgar, ~5 turns later (~15 turns from now). That's the fastest we can make it.

Copied and edited from another thread.

	07-08-2003 06:19									#3
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I would prefer to go in greater numbers than just 3 units initially. ND and GoW don't need us right now until GS attacks them - so perhaps we have time to wait to build up further.

Besides I am curious to wait a while longer to see what happens on Bob , especially the aftermath of the bloody Battle of Leon.

Besides, following a "what-have-you-done-for-the-Bob-alliance-lately" approach, we might want to stagger out the help we give the Bob alliance - in 4 to 6 turns we trade techs and soon after luxuries for instance - then a few turns later we land perhaps?

Given that I am fairly sure I saw 2 ND galleys moving south towards RP's southern cities (Sevilla for instance) -I wonder if we should contact RP to "warn" them about the galleys and perhaps let them suggest to put Sevilla under our protection by them trading it to us if they think it will fall. That would give us a base on Bob to work from. Though it would also be unethical as we don't plan on supporting RP at all.

I wish we had this tactical discussion BEFORE Vondrack chatted with ND listing plans for when we would land as he didn't put in the usual "provided my team agrees with it" catch-phrase as to my knowledge this is the first time that we are discussing it.

Last edited by Sharpe on 07-08-2003 at 07:18

	07-08-2003 10:34									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I would prefer to go in greater numbers than just 3 units initially. ND and GoW don't need us right now until GS attacks them - so perhaps we have time to wait to build up further.

Well, it is only 3 units that can transported with a caravel. Since we don't have more than two caravels (actually 2 galleys until Astronomy), how could we transport more than that? What would be the point in waiting to have more caravels ready, when the first two can make a transport until then? The second transport will be 3 caravels delivering 9 troops (probably a settler + a few NMs + more knights). How could we transport all these troops in one shipment later?

quote: Besides I am curious to wait a while longer to see what happens on Bob , especially the aftermath of the bloody Battle of Leon.

That's not so hard to guess. RP will be weaker and weaker, ND will be less aggressive until they rebuild their army, while GS will land more and more troops on Bob, fighthing with GoW for now, probably. So this is becoming less and less a RP vs. GoW+ND but more and more a GS vs. GoW+ND war.

quote: Besides, following a "what-have-you-done-for-the-Bob-alliance-lately" approach, we might want to stagger out the help we give the Bob alliance - in 4 to 6 turns we trade techs and soon after luxuries for instance - then a few turns later we land perhaps?

I'm afraid I don't understand this. In 4 or 6 turns we will trade luxuries with ND and GoW, yes. So??? What is connection between this and the exp. forces we are going to send?
We are helping with whatever we can as fast as possible, because we don't know yet what forces will GS unleash on Bob.

quote: Given that I am fairly sure I saw 2 ND galleys moving south towards RP's southern cities (Sevilla for instance) -I wonder if we should contact RP to "warn" them about the galleys and perhaps let them suggest to put Sevilla under our protection by them trading it to us if they think it will fall. That would give us a base on Bob to work from. Though it would also be unethical as we don't plan on supporting RP at all.

This is so unfair and unethical that I would leave Legoland in the second we would decide such an action.

quote: I wish we had this tactical discussion BEFORE Vondrack chatted with ND listing plans for when we would land as he didn't put in the usual "provided my team agrees with it" catch-phrase as to my knowledge this is the first time that we are discussing it.

Well, I kind of agree with this. We should have discussed what to land, where and when before we made the plans official.

	07-08-2003 10:40									#5
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I have to say that sending units at this point is, well, pointless. As I have said before, when we finally get things in motion, we want to land in force, not in little trickles. Delaying the arrival of the first boat until a second ship can be readied won't cause any undue harm. 3 knights will make little difference at this point, so we might as well hold off until we can land with a larger, more imposing force. ND and GoW haven't come begging for the military aid YET, so we don't need to rush it in the meantime.

	07-08-2003 10:47									#6
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Sending units now is not pointless. It's not that the first 3 units would make any difference now. They won't fight until the 2nd and even 3rd transport will arrive. We are gathering our forces on Bob, not fighting with 2 or 3 knights. They will stay hidden until the rest of the expeditionary force will arrive.

For now we will have 6 knights on Bob. With the second transport we will have another 9 knights on Bob. That's 15 knights. Now tell me, aren't 15 knights more imposing than only one transport of 9 knights?

We are not fighting yet. We are waiting, only waiting actively.

	07-08-2003 14:58									#7
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Err, another problem is that we don't even have 15 knights yet. We still have only 36 total military units (half of which are mercs) - we need to get up to around 45-50 before we should consider sending units over to Bob. Once we do that the die is cast - sending units over there in 4 or so turns is premature. We need to figure out what the minimum we need to be able to defend us in all sectors - and to be honest I am not sure we have enough yet for that.

It wouldn't be wise to nearly strip our homeland of offensive capabilities- even the loss of 3-6 knights right now would be crippling. With Navigation so close - and the ability for GS to land on our landmass, we need to keep at least equal or more offensive capabilities on our land mass. Despite what GS says about Economics, it is EXTREMELY likely that they will go for Navigation after we trade them Astronomy.

We have stated that our military committment to GoW and ND is dependant on GS attacking them. So far, GS seems to be having enough trouble defending the remaining RP cities, though with the establishment of that GS port city, this will eventually change.

	07-08-2003 16:42									#8
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OK, I have had a post almost finished. But I deliberately scrapped it before posting. Instead of commenting on the posts above, some of which made me furious (Steve, you should sometimes really consider what you are saying - your ideas about "warning" the enemies of our allies and about accepting Sevilla from RPers to get a base for our operations are... well, brilliant, definitely brilliant ... - I do not think we can find a commond ground EVER in these matters), I am going to state my position very clearly:

1) It was not me proposing we should get involved militarily in this war - but I fully agreed, as I believed this was the point where this game would (or could) be decided.

2) If we are going to intervene militarily, we must do so like there was no tomorrow. Since if GS succeeds on Bob and conquers ND/GoW, I am afraid there will be nothing to stop them from winning this game. Apart from losing our own chances to win, I would hate it if the GS folks won this game - I just happen to dislike their touchy attitude SO MUCH.

3) We are desperately short of time. Remember how long the whole Vox-GS war lasted? Under 20 turns. In less than 20 turns, it was over - and GS was starting from nothing, facing a strong force in the beginning. If anyone thinks, we can "get up to around 45-50 [military units]" before sending the first LEF units, he is totally wrong. The war would be over by the time our brave troops started landing on Bob.

4) There is a certain risk of GS researching Navigation and becoming a real threat, launching an overseas attack at Legos. However, that's a risk we will have to take - our defenses will, I am afraid, not be impenetrable in that case. Because if we waste time setting our defenses "properly" before committing the first troops to the LEF, we are going to make no difference in the outcome of the Bobian War.

However - even though there IS a certain chance this might happen, it is quite unlikely. GS does not know yet we have become their direct enemies. So they do not have a reason to plan for an invasion on Legos. Thus, the only reason for them to consider Navigation is helping RP to their GA... but RP is more or less dead anyway (they have lost their production capacity), their GA would make little difference. So - when GS considers its next research goal, I would be really surprised to see them choose Navigation. Invention makes MUCH more sense, since it's a prerequisite for Gunpowder & Leo's (they can very well bet on a GL to steal the wonder from GoW) and its price will soon be a bit lower due to GoW finishing the research.

Is one front on Bob not going to be enough for GS? Are they likely to be eager to open yet another front on Legos? That would force us to waive any self-imposed limitations we might have regarding our involvement in the war and start threatening THEIR homeland, too.

Besides - GS landing on Legos would trigger our GA within 2-3 turns. Our production capacity would skyrocket and I am quite sure we would drive them back to the sea. Yes, we might lose a city or two, even some fine ones. But we will have two core areas by that time and bringing us completely down will be beyond the capabilities of an invasion force GS will be able to commit. And all the units they will send to Legos will be missing on Bob, making it easier for ND and GoW to keep pressure on GS there.

So - even if it is not 100% safe, I am deeply convinced we have to deplete at least our mobile forces on Legos, sending them over to Bob as fast as possible. If they are late, they will not be able to make any difference.

5) Sending our troops to Bob as fast as possible is also extremely important for the trust between us, ND, and GoW. If they see we honor our word and are actually committing troops, it will encourage them tremendously and will make them much easier to deal with regarding various "imbalanced" ways of cooperation - like them giving huge amounts of gold to allow us to research fast, upgrade horses to knights... whatever.

If they know our troops are ready to take at least part of the brunt of a surprise GS attack at their homelands, they will be able to commit more troops to the principal front, making it more difficult for GS to overcome them.

Six knights, gentleman, is still six knights. It's nothing that can decide a war. But it certainly is a force that can significantly soften a 9-12 unit assault stack surprise landing from caravels in the GoW rear.

6) While it's not exactly true that ND/GoW are not asking for our troops (re-read the logs, please), even if it was so... if we let the war to get to this point before sending our first troops, it will be too late and the war will be much more costly. Sitting back and watching the onslaught on Bob is a sure way to lose the game to GS - we best know how strong they are. With all our fine economy, we still cannot see even their back - and they have a LOT of vet units... all their cities produce vet units thanks to the SunTzu's.

7) I am going to ignore everybody whining about the lack of discussion about our plans, as long as I post all relevant materials well ahead of the actual action being taken. Just read the chatlogs posted a whole week ago, please - everything I am trying to organize here now (troops transfer e.g.) has been prediscussed there, at that time in the "could/may" form. Nobody cared to start any discussions, comment on the chatlogs, lay out any plans, or anything like that (however, we DO have a new thread in our forum on what other great games we have... ). If nobody objects proposals I am discussing in chats, I naturally assume we all agree about that it's the way to go. Especially if I can see no alternative, which is the case now.


And one final point. I'm less and less sure that my approach to playing this game is an approach that would suit the taste of our membership. Which is a problem, because - as noted before - I'm actually the only one bothering to lay out any long-term plans, which inevitably leads to the overall strategy leaning towards what I would play if being alone. You cannot possibly imagine how frustrating it is to spend hours and hours preparing things, chatting, fine-tuning details - only to eventually learn that there was a "lack of discussion". Hell - if you want a discussion about something, START ONE, and do not wait for someone else do it for you. If you wanna make sure vondrack does not go too loose with his activities, then suggest your own plan - he will at least have to respond and will get the hint that his ideas may not be shared universally throughout the team. The extent of our involvement has been set a week ago. Everybody had time enough to express his ideas and/or alterations to what has been the topic of those chats. Nobody bothered to comment, nobody bothered to come with his own plan(s). So I went ahead and started to consider the ideas discussed in the chats our goals (e.g., first units on Bob as fast as possible, which is in ~10-15 turns).

If you are unhappy about that, no problem - say so here. If the majority of the team is unhappy about this, I will act accordingly. Save the pleasantries for this one time, please, and give me a straight "yes" or "no" here. It's very important, as I consider LACK of any discussion an implied agreement with whatever ideas I might have laid out here either through posts or chatlogs.

P.S.: on the numbers of our knights. IIRC, we currently have 9 mounted units... all of them should be knights by the time their ship sets sail. The remaining six shall be quite easy to build over the next 15-20 turns, which is where our first ships will be coming back to our ports.

	07-08-2003 17:39									#9
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I think you are right.

	07-08-2003 19:51									#10
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I've read through the plans and they are consistant with what has been discussed. I'm not talking discussion from private on-line chats, because I have not been in any. I have read the posted chats, the various threads and the plans are consistant with what I have read.

When the plans were presented (for example, sending troops immendiately), there were some opposition. I believe the majority agreed with sending troops immediately (ferry troops to Bob, but don't attack until we have ~15 - 20 knights.

Should a poll be posted?...definitely? Who post the poll?...anyone who feels the urge. As discussed in an earlier thread, if you disagree with ANY move and feel it's important enough to warrant a poll, then create one. I have been negligent in this regard, but no longer.

Oh well enough of this thread jacking.

	07-08-2003 20:01									#11
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I think the only current plan is listed in my previous post (copied from Vondrack). I'll check on the landing locations and provide any feedback. I have a few questions that may have been decided, but am not sure:

1) Are all the knights gathering around one Bob location (near Trafalgar)? From the previous post, I can't decifer it there are one or two sites.

2. What about catapults? From my understanding, our allies have not made a firm decision. My preference is to not do anything until they ask. I would rather not spend the resources. I think Vondrack made it clear that we will only provide catapults if there is a definite need. The offer is out there, let our allies respond.

3. Worker? I am a little more willing to provide workers, but again let our allies respond. The offer is out there.

4. Getting Seville to backstab RP's allies sounds very dirty to me. We are not that desparate (yet!). I would vote against this proposal.

Oh, got a meeting...I'll be back.

	07-08-2003 20:13									#12
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Ok, let me make myself clear:

As it is quite obvious that I am quite pro-Bobian intervention, I am all for getting troops there as fast as possible, but with a plan.

3 knights = crap.
15 knights = too far off.
6-9 knights = good for the moment.

When we finally show our hand to GS, if we do it with 3 knights vs. a stack of 3 units vs. a stack of 10 units (which is probably what they are marching around with), we will lose the knights, give them warning of what we are doing, and all subsequent plans will be harder.

However, a stack of 6 knights at least stands a chance of wiping out the majority of a large stack, as well as showing we really mean business.

Sure, we can send the units over in a trickle until we're up to 15, but what difference does that make? Here or there, if they're not doing anything, they're not doing anything. Wait for Caravel 2, upgrade a few more, and send the mid-size force all at once. It will only be 4-5 turn delay. I've already spoken to GoW about the situation, and they aren't feeling overly threatened yet. And, seriously, if GS can defeat GoW and ND both within 20 turns, then what the hell is the point of even trying to fight them? They'd be unbeatable. I know they're good, but I don't think they're THAT good. Don't use Vox as an example; love 'em and all, but they were pretty atrocious military planners, it seems.

So that's my position: wait just a few more turns. It's not going to kill our allies, it's not going to kill us, and it can only help in the long run.

	07-08-2003 20:43									#13
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Oh, and I'm against the Seville thing. I know we don't have a "code of honor" but that just feels low. Besides, I don't think RP would give it to us anyway at this point...

	07-08-2003 21:12									#14
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How about starting with the beginning?

How many troops we want to send on Bob?
What kind of troops? Only knights? A settler? Cats? Numibians??
Are we going to build a city?
Where do we want to land? In GoW's territory or in ND's?
What is the deadline to have all of our troops there? Can this be done with 3 caravels only or shall we send more transports with the same caravels?

I will try to answer myself after taking a better look at the save.

	08-08-2003 00:45									#15
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Minimum of 10 knights before any planned action. I would prefer 15 knights. I do not want to settle on Bob, that would be sending mixed signals. We have plenty of friendly territory to hide and heal. Cats and Numbians (woops they're in Star Wars)would be nice, but I don't think we want to wait for them. If we can peel off some Numibians from our current force, then fine (I don't see it happening). No Cats (they don't get along with the dogs).

Sent troops as they are ready. In case they are needed, we will have the resources available near the frontline. We need to keep them hidden. If we start ferrying now, 3 caravels is enough.

Not sure where to land. I have to see the save,which may not happen. I'm leaving for vacation today and won't be back until Tuesday. I leave that decision to the majority opinion.

Leo

	08-08-2003 01:33									#16
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We look like the public forum today. Please, assume good intentions, and don't take things personally.

Back to the game:
I agree with sending troops now. Sure, they won't be enough for action, but it will put less stress on our transport "fleet", (which currently consists of one little galley ) when more Knights start to be built. I'm sure ND/GoW will be okay with them cooling their heels somewhere away from GS' army till we're ready, and it shows some commitment to the alliance. And I doubt GS would attack Legos till we attack them; honor code aside, they won't bring us in to the war if they can help it. So, IMO home defense is actually a pretty small issue up until (and if) we join the war. Vox is rebuilding (and I do mostly trust them), and everyone else is at war and doesn't need another front.

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Oh, and I'm against the Seville thing. I know we don't have a "code of honor" but that just feels low. Besides, I don't think RP would give it to us anyway at this point...

Agreed on both points. GS will have doubtless informed RP of our leaning toward GoW-ND; no way RP will trust us now.

	08-08-2003 11:41									#17
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Well, I didn't take a look at the save , but nevertheless some points:

1. We should send between 12 and 15 knights on Bob. This should be enough to make a decisive hit, if needed.
This is the first priority I think, the knights.

Depending on how things will evolve, we could also send catapults (if requested) and workers.

I'd let for a later debate whether we need a base or not on Bob, in which case we would send a settler and a couple of numibians. The base will be needed only if the war will gain proportions and we will send even more troops who will need to heal quickly and often.

2. The landing spot doesn't really matters, what matters is where to gather our troops. I don't have the map here, so I will suppose that the triangle discussed by Vondrack in the chat is OK for now. This can change quickly anyway, depending on GS troop movements.

3. I say we should start sending whatever we can now. Well, not quite now, but after upgrading our two galleys. With only 3 caravels we won't be able to transport all the troops needed at once, especially if ND would ask some workers or cats, too.

4. I don't think that a GS invasion would be a threat anytime soon. I doubt they have the desire and capability to fight efficiently on 2 fronts. It is obvious that GS will need lots[ of troops to fight both the riders and ansars efficiently. Add to this our knights, so should they want to avoid a defeat on Bob, I doubt they can commit elsewhere. When we should start becoming worried is the moment when GS will start pulling back some of its forces from Bob.
Besides they will need time to prepare such an invasion, time that should be enough for us to prepare some home defences.

	12-08-2003 10:10									#18
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Before we send any mercs to Bob, we need to decide if the time is right for our GA. I think we would want to hold off on that.

My preference is not to build a settlement on Bob (even temporary) and not to send mercs.

Leo

	27-08-2003 02:41									#19
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Well...

The extra time we took with our 150BC turn really paid off.

ZargonX forgot to start the gunpowder research. Means we will have about ~250g in the bank next turn, but gp will be discovered one turn later. Oh, well...

I have already PMed our allies regarding this and apologized profoundly.

The accountancy:

~250g in bank next turn
-80g for a knight upgrade
-20g for a caravel upgrade
--------
~150g in bank

At ~-95gpt for 5 turns, we should be able to cover up to ~25gpt from our own sources, needing ~70gpt from our allies. That's what I let them know.

	27-08-2003 04:19									#20
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Yup, definately my bad. Though, on the up side, we do have a little more bank padding I'll talk to our allies about it as well. Though, if a one turn delay in gunpowder is the difference between victory and defeat, I'll eat my hat.

	27-08-2003 04:22									#21
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Umm, you guys are assuming that we are going to do 100% research. In the chat room we are doubting that our allies will give 350 gold over the next 5 turns, so we are talking about doing anything from 50% to a maximum of 70% research.

	27-08-2003 04:27									#22
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I would support 100% so long as we can afford it, but I'm also concerned about whether they'll be able to cough up 350 gold in the middle of a war.

	27-08-2003 04:49									#23
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Yes, those are important considerations we need to find out. If they can't handle the cash, then we can't do the research. They'd better get it figured out on their end before our next turn...

	27-08-2003 18:39									#24
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We don't need the entire amount; just enough to keep us in the plus side. Technically, we are at war right now and this is part of price. We absorb the cost and let them keep the money to upgrade their spearmen.

	28-08-2003 15:18									#25
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The 350 gold over the next five turns is what our allies expect and already basically agreed to. This (100% gunpowder research partially funded by our allies) was first proposed and discussed almost a month ago, both with them and in our forum (see the Enlightened thread), and generally acknowledged in later chats. I understand it might have already go "out of focus" for us... but not for them, believe me.

Both of our allies are fully aware of these expenses and ready to provide the gold. The 70gpt we'll need means each ally of ours will have to provide us with 35gpt over 5 turns. Both GoW & ND are now in their GA, having the income of 100+ gpt, so 35gpt is not a major deal for them.

Gunpowder is extremely important for all of us - and for them in particular, as GoW & ND will have to defend their stacks/cities against GS knights.

I will get the final confirmation this evening in the regular chat with GoW & ND (18:00 GMT, the chat is usually held either at Apolyton IRC or at Undernet... if you happen to be online, by all means, join us).

	29-08-2003 00:02									#26
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Just a very brief recap of today's chat (I do not think you wanna read the whole log - 95% of it is just Aggie discussing military plans with Darekill):

1) we shall be getting 35gpt+35gpt from this very turn (they sent the gold even before I asked them officially this evening)
2) GS has ~12 knights in the Southern Bob + some support troops
3) both our allies feel they are in good shape
4) they very much rely on our support, though - to the extent of planning or at least seriously considering leaving their eastern coast very lightly defended, throwing all their forces South. Our knights will be very important in their home defenses.

	29-08-2003 02:51									#27
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Hmmm... I guess I should go back to the elementary school... ya know what? I have just discovered 100 extra gold in our coffers (as of the next turn) - because 190+160 is not 250, but 350... oh, well, I don't mind making a mistake like this here and there...

Means we have a nice cash reserve.

	29-08-2003 04:39									#28
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quote: Means we have a nice cash reserve.

See, isn't that what I told you? I don't make stupid mistakes, I'm just a master planner

	29-08-2003 06:40									#29
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Just a very brief recap of today's chat (I do not think you wanna read the whole log - 95% of it is just Aggie discussing military plans with Darekill):

Would you post the chat? I'd be interested to see their discussion.

	29-08-2003 12:06									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Would you post the chat? I'd be interested to see their discussion.

Attaching the raw chatlog (I do not feel like formatting it as usually - it'd be a waste of time, IMHO... it really is a pretty boring stuff - for us, that is).