Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > GDP, M&A, EBITDA, P/E, NASDAQ, Econo-thread Part 14
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (8): [ <<   5   6   7   8   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:30
  Old Post 05-11-2003 12:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#211 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

So we have 3 years to go.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 05-11-2003 19:54 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#212 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Funny, I always thought you were older than me




Nope. I'm still a youngin'.

quote:
Q1 2000 peak: -6.1%


That's a real head scratcher, isn't it? I guess we shed the lowest value hours, like all of those dot bombs, manufacturing, etc.

quote:
I'll say it again, high productivity growth and a lackluster labour market - welcome america to the european economy of 1973-96


I doubt we will be quite like that. Labor always finds its price, and we keep shoveling labor into our economy at a rapid clip. At first, they might be jobs that Europeans and many Americans would turn their noses up at, but they represent honest days' wages.

Last edited by DanS on 05-11-2003 at 20:06

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 05-11-2003 20:58 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#213 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

And for Colon, here's Toyota doing it up in style. Props to them.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1045050946495

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:30
  Old Post 05-11-2003 23:44 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#214 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
So we have 3 years to go.


A little more than 2 actually.

Colon is offline Colon
Emperor
Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
  Old Post 05-11-2003 23:54
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#215 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

Dan, consider that the rising unemployment and high productivity growth are likely connected. After all, when firms fire people, they fire the least productive ones, thereby automatically increasing the average productivity of the remainder. As EF already implied, a similar effect had been taking place in Europe during the late 90's, only in the reverse. (fast employment growth depressing productivity growth, as less productive employees were hired)

Re Toyota, most of the Japanese automobiles has been doing really well: check Honda and Nissan. Mitsubushi was also on the mend IIRC.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:30
  Old Post 05-11-2003 23:58 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#216 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by Colon
As EF already implied, a similar effect had been taking place in Europe during the late 90's, only in the reverse. (fast employment growth depressing productivity growth, as less productive employees were hired)


Employment growth stimulates demand though. That boosts productivity.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:05 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#217 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote:
Dan, consider that the rising unemployment and high productivity growth are likely connected. After all, when firms fire people, they fire the least productive ones, thereby automatically increasing the average productivity of the remainder. As EF already implied, a similar effect had been taking place in Europe during the late 90's, only in the reverse. (fast employment growth depressing productivity growth, as less productive employees were hired)


I think I've already gone over this with ef in pretty good detail. He will be able to give you a good description, but on a summary level, high productivity growth is attached to high hours growth just as much as it is attached to hours losses (I think high productivity growth/high hours growth comes out ahead). I'll see if I can find my notes on this for the coincidence of these two figures.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:30
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#218 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


A little more than 2 actually.


We were talking about the 2003-06 period, ie including 2006, were we not?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:30
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:53 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#219 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler


We were talking about the 2003-06 period, ie including 2006, were we not?


Maybe. I thought you didn't remember.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:30
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#220 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

I remember the time period of a similar bet. IIRC I used 2006, based on the last hurray of the Greenspan bubble. But who knows, maybe they really go unconventional and it works for a while, then I'll lose this bet.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:30
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:19 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#221 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
I remember the time period of a similar bet. IIRC I used 2006, based on the last hurray of the Greenspan bubble. But who knows, maybe they really go unconventional and it works for a while, then I'll lose this bet.


I said they are damned if they do and damned if they don't so they might as well put off the enevitable. The US economy is growing now and maybe it will next year. It wouldn't have if they didn't lower interest rates. There is another recession coming for sure, but everything taken into consideration it was the right decision.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 06-11-2003 21:27 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#222 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Only 8.1%? What a disappointment!

Colon is offline Colon
Emperor
Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:30
  Old Post 06-11-2003 22:09
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#223 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by DanS


I think I've already gone over this with ef in pretty good detail. He will be able to give you a good description, but on a summary level, high productivity growth is attached to high hours growth just as much as it is attached to hours losses (I think high productivity growth/high hours growth comes out ahead). I'll see if I can find my notes on this for the coincidence of these two figures.


Not sure if I got ya... Don't the hours worked in the BLS release represent the average worked hours, not the total of worked hours of all employees?

el freako is offline el freako
Prince
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:30
  Old Post 06-11-2003 22:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#224 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Only 8.1%? What a disappointment!


That means that hours (which means total hours worked colon) have started to rise for the first time since Q1 2000

I have edited the above statistics to reflect the new data

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 07-11-2003 21:45 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#225 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

Yep, it looks like the hours worked is coming around. Payrolls up. Average workweek up.

el freako is offline el freako
Prince
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:30
  Old Post 07-11-2003 22:27
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#226 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

Actually I was wrong, there was a simmilar rise (0.1%) in hours in Q2 2002, however this was followed by a 1.4% fall.

I would only say that the turning point has been reached if hours also rise in Q4.

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:30
  Old Post 13-11-2003 13:17
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#227 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Roland will love this, esp. the last section.

quote:
Do Asset Prices Belong in Central Banker Toolkit? Caroline Baum
Nov. 13 (Bloomberg) -- We can thank better monetary policy for taking much of the volatility out of the business cycle over the past two decades. Recessions are fewer in number, shorter and shallower in nature, with Japan's lost decade of the 1990s the exception to the rule.

Central banks in developed countries have achieved price stability through either an implicit or explicit inflation target, obviating the need to slam on the brakes and cause a recession to ``cure'' inflation.

Reduced volatility in the real economy has gone hand in hand with increased volatility in asset markets. It's as if there's ``a kind of moral hazard of economic policymaking: the more stable/predictable the economic environment, the more risk taking, investment, and innovation take place,'' writes Bob Keleher, chief economist at the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, in an April 2003 paper, ``Monetary Policy and Asset Prices.''

If financial imbalances and asset bubbles are occurring in low inflation, stable economic environments, and if the size of asset markets relative to the economy has soared, then perhaps there is a role for asset prices in the conduct of monetary policy above and beyond their standard transmission mechanism function.

``From 1950 to 1982, housing was roughly equal to gross domestic product in the U.S.,'' says Joe Carson, head of global economic research at Alliance Capital Management. ``Now it's 40 percent bigger than GDP. From 1965 to 1995, equity market capitalization was 50 percent of GDP. Now it equals GDP.''

Recession Drivers

At the peak of the 1990s stock bubble in March 2000, the market value of U.S. stocks hit a high of 183 percent of GDP, according to Jim Bianco, president of Bianco Research.

The issue is not whether asset prices matter; they do. They create wealth for consumers and businesses and determine how capital is allocated.

The issue is whether central bankers should respond to perceived asset bubbles in the same way they react to inflation and other events that have the potential to destabilize the economy.

Consider that the last two recessions in the U.S. and series of recessions in Japan in the 1990s were arguably the result of popped asset bubbles. In the U.S., the bubble was in real estate in the late 1980s/early 1990s and in the stock market in the late 1990s. Japan had a double whammy -- overvalued real estate and equities -- in the bubble economy of the 1980s.

Misallocation of Capital

Residential real estate is booming in the U.S., and some analysts think stock prices have outrun the fundamentals yet again.

``Ignoring inflation in the asset markets and its potential influence on the allocation -- and misallocation -- of capital can have significant adverse macroeconomic consequences,'' Carson says.

Carson advocates using a broad price index, which includes a weighted average of real estate and stock prices in addition to consumer and producer prices, to assess the stance of monetary policy. Currently, the gap between the growth rate in his proprietary broad price index and the federal funds rate is the widest in 20 years.

One of the side effects of a rapid rise in asset prices is excessive debt accumulation -- to finance even more asset accumulation, Carson says. ``It is this misallocation of capital and rapid asset price inflation that's missed by the current analytical framework (for gauging inflation), creating the risk of another boom/bust cycle.''

Lacking Prescience

In raising interest rates last week, both the Bank of England and Reserve Bank of Australia noted a booming housing market and rapid credit growth.

All central bankers take asset prices into account, but only to the extent that they affect the real output and inflation. They readily admit they don't have superior information to the private sector when it comes to diagnosing a bubble.

The main argument -- and there are many -- against responding to perceived asset bubbles is the most basic: Bubbles are difficult to identify in real time, except under the vaguest of doctrines established by the late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to define pornography (``I know it when I see it'').

Loose Definition

``Just because asset price misalignments are difficult to measure is no reason to ignore them,'' writes Steve Cecchetti, professor of international economics and finance at Brandeis University in Waltham, Massachusetts, and former research director at the New York Fed, in a May 9, 2002, Financial Times op-ed article. ``If central bankers threw out all data that was poorly measured, there would be very little information left on which to base their decisions.''

What about the squishy concept of the output gap, the difference between potential and actual GDP? The gap ``is notoriously difficult to measure in real time, yet it remains an important input to central bank inflation forecasts,'' writes Kevin Lansing, senior economist at the San Francisco Fed in the bank's Nov. 14 economic letter, ``Should the Fed React to the Stock Market?''

Another argument against a monetary policy response to asset prices is the lack of a ``consistent relationship between changes in stock prices and changes in inflation,'' the JEC's Keleher writes.

Caveat Emptor

If the stock market has no reliable correlation to inflation, and low, stable inflation is what central banks care about as a means to the attainment of maximum sustainable growth, then maybe asset prices have no place in the central bankers' toolkit.

Where most economists agree is on the appropriateness of a monetary policy response once the asset bubble bursts.

``The biggest mistakes -- in the case of Japan, for example -- are what they did afterwards,'' says Frederic Mishkin, professor of banking and financial institutions at the Columbia Business School and a former New York Fed research director. ``The focus should be on financial stability rather than the stock market.''

Asset bubbles don't erupt involuntarily. In most cases, they are an outgrowth of excess credit creation, which originates with the central bank.

For example, the Fed lowered short-term rates by 75 basis points in the fall of 1998 to counteract the ``seizing up'' of financial markets. As it turned out, the seizing markets had zero effect on the economy. The Fed's largesse soothed the Nasdaq Composite Index to an 86 percent increase in 1999.

Maybe the issue isn't asset bubbles themselves but the policies and conditions that give rise to them. Those are the purview of the central bank.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
Thumbs up  Old Post 25-11-2003 20:15 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#228 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

3rd quarter GDP growth revised upward to 8.2% at an annual rate. Nice.

2004 GDP growth is forecast at 4.5%.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
King
AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 25-11-2003 20:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#229 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

The US seem to have adopted a developping country stance, as far as growth is concerned I mean.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 26-11-2003 05:26
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#230 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Originally posted by DanS
3rd quarter GDP growth revised upward to 8.2% at an annual rate. Nice.

2004 GDP growth is forecast at 4.5%.


Looks like Sten was right about indicators lagging a change in direction. Understating beggining of a boom and beginning of a bust. Or is it more Roland conspiricy stuff. MAybe Greenspan and Bush are stockpiling earnings like a Freddie MAC CEO.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
  Old Post 26-11-2003 05:30
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#231 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Roland needs to read Brealey and Myers and the VAluation book. Central bankers following the stock market would lead to even worse manipulation and such than what he thinks the market-proppers (gnomes of Washington?) were working at.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:30
  Old Post 26-11-2003 12:07
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#232 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

You really love telling bullshit about me.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:30
  Old Post 04-12-2003 06:38 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#233 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Look how strong that Euro is though.

Attachment: cga120.gif
This has been downloaded 14 time(s).

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:30
  Old Post 08-12-2003 05:05 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#234 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What does everyone think about the price of gold, $407/oz?

It seems to me that investors are not only afraid of a falling dollar, but maybe major imbalances.

Will this mean higher interest rates in the US?

 
Pages (8): [ <<   5   6   7   8   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:30.
Apolyton Time is 00:30.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0560 seconds (91.24% PHP - 8.76% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net