20-08-2003 00:30									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II You can't ever make terrorism go away... and even if you can make the Muslims stop committing terrorist acts, it will STILL go on by some OTHER group. Like those wackos in Japan, or another Tim McVeigh. The War on Terror is like a War on Murder, its a noble idea, but you're kidding yourself if you ever think it'll be "over". I remember seeing a great political cartoon, which I saved. It says "Think Overwhelming Military Force Can Stop Terrorism? Look at Israel:" And it a drawing of bodies being carried away from the charred skeleton of a bus. Based on a real photo.

Israel has never really used overwhelming military force. The closest they came, in spring of 2002, they reduced terrorism considerably.

	20-08-2003 00:31									#32
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Like Pakistan. Oh wait, they just kill people in Kashmir, so why bother.

Pakistan is definitely on the list.

	20-08-2003 00:32									#33
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Oh yes... Israel has never used overwhelming military force... except when they occupy lands illegally and shell houses.

	20-08-2003 00:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II You can't ever make terrorism go away... and even if you can make the Muslims stop committing terrorist acts, it will STILL go on by some OTHER group. Like those wackos in Japan, or another Tim McVeigh. The War on Terror is like a War on Murder, its a noble idea, but you're kidding yourself if you ever think it'll be "over". I remember seeing a great political cartoon, which I saved. It says "Think Overwhelming Military Force Can Stop Terrorism? Look at Israel:" And it a drawing of bodies being carried away from the charred skeleton of a bus. Based on a real photo.

maybe you cant make murder go away. But when it gets out of hand its a good idea to get tough about it. It may even be good to get outraged.

.

	20-08-2003 00:35									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II Oh yes... Israel has never used overwhelming military force... except when they occupy lands illegally and shell houses.

Do you understand the difference between occupying land, legally or not, and using overwhelming force. AS for shelling houses, they do so only when they value of the target is great relative to the likely collateral damage. theyd have gotten a lot more terrs by now otherwise, and the terrorists wouldnt find hiding out among civilians so desirable.

	20-08-2003 00:37									#36
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I think it's time to realize we don't have the capability of kicking terrorist ass. They have a distinct advantage over us. I can't see any way to win.

	20-08-2003 00:38									#37
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Uh huh... as in the case of when some idiot Palestine took some shots at an Israeli bulldozer (injuring NO ONE) and the Israelis responded by shelling the nearby Palestinian settlement killing several women and children... good job!

	20-08-2003 00:41									#38
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark any counsel they want as long as the counsel has security clearance, IIUC. Is that asking too much, for trials at which top secret intelligence is likely to be presented?

Only US military attorneys, and I'm not sure whether the defendants will chose them or they will be "court" appointed.

	20-08-2003 00:42									#39
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Pakistan is definitely on the list.

Of US allies.

	20-08-2003 00:42									#40
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Only US military attorneys, and I'm not sure whether the defendants will chose them or they will be "court" appointed.

im quite sure i heard on NPR that they can request otehr attorneys who have security clearance.

	20-08-2003 00:45									#41
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark well terrorism pretty much ended in Egypt, without a positive and effective alternative. So im not sure your premise is right.

The government has succeeded in crushing the oppostion (they did in Alegria too), but that hqas not meant an end to the Islamist threat, only its going underground. Does the egypttian state dare lower its security? And added notion: if we start acitng like egypt's rulers then we have lost our freedom.

quote: I would also note that we have islamic terrorism in Indonesia, where there is democracy and freedom for islamist parties, more so than jordan or egypt where there is not. But even if it is, the acts of terror tend to undermine any positve and effective alternatives, as seen from Palestine to Iraq, and from Pakistan to Indonesia. So it is necessary to fight it at the same time as we build an alternative.

Democracy in Indonesia is just beginning: it is hardly a model for anything.

I never said that we should not fight. But when ad how we fight must be based on an honest and intelliegent annalysis of where violence works and were it doesn't. The reason terrorism exist is becuase evryone knows that violence can work to bring about a desires political outcome. The probems is that most practicioners skipped the "honest and intelligent annalysis" part and thus are using violcne in self-defeating or unproductive ways.

	20-08-2003 00:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark im quite sure i heard on NPR that they can request otehr attorneys who have security clearance.

So their pool is far more limited than it ever would in a criminal trial, or even a court Martial? And who gives out security clearances? Ajh, the very organization trying the men. So the US government, prosecutor, invariably controls who can be in the counsel..how democratic.

	20-08-2003 00:48									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How many people killed today? 20-30? Perhaps it is a good sign that people get so worked up about political violcene that leads to that many (which is not that many) deaths.

ah the term is changed from "terrorism" to the amorphous "political violence" - thus establishing a moral equivalence in which a Paul Kagame is held to be the equivalent of an Idi Amin, in which a Shimon Peres is no better than Abu Nidal, in which a Bill Clinton is the equivalent of a Slobodan Milosevic and a Tony Blair the equivalent of Osama Bin Laden.

	20-08-2003 00:50									#44
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"im quite sure i heard on NPR that they can request otehr attorneys who have security clearance."

Among the Concessions Lord Goldsmith won for UK citizens was chosing civil US attorneys and the possibility to consult UK lawyers. Also, that a minimum of attorney-client priviledge would be respected.

200 UK MPs called these "tribunals" a farce in a petition to bring them to a real court.

	20-08-2003 00:54									#45
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So their pool is far more limited than it ever would in a criminal trial, or even a court Martial? And who gives out security clearances? Ajh, the very organization trying the men. So the US government, prosecutor, invariably controls who can be in the counsel..how democratic.

Of course their are loads of attorneys who have security clearances already - its not that hard to get one, and their hardly limited to supporters of current admin policies.

And how else do you deal with trials where most of the evidence is top secret, and where even the presence of the defendent in US hands is secret, and where what the defendant has said and been asked in interrogation is secret? Would you rather we not try them at all??? Or is that you dont care about the security issues??? Would you like someone whos just been through interrogation to pass on to their attorney what the interrogators asked? Who might then pass it on to al-qaeeda? To take backbearings? Do you know what backbearings are???

	20-08-2003 01:00									#46
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "im quite sure i heard on NPR that they can request otehr attorneys who have security clearance." Among the Concessions Lord Goldsmith won for UK citizens was chosing civil US attorneys and the possibility to consult UK lawyers. Also, that a minimum of attorney-client priviledge would be respected. 200 UK MPs called these "tribunals" a farce in a petition to bring them to a real court.

per AP the concession is on use of UK and Aussie lawyers, rather than limit to US citizens. Again, AFAIK US citizens who have security clearance are allowed as attorneys, not just military lawyers.

Minimum attorney client privilege - IE no monitoring to see if secrets were being passed.

	20-08-2003 01:02									#47
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"and where even the presence of the defendent in US hands is secret"

Funny, about every authoritarian regime has used secret trials. What's next, state security courts a la Turkey?

	20-08-2003 01:04									#48
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This is why vigilance against tyranny is always necessary.

	20-08-2003 01:10									#49
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Bombing against a UN building in Iraq. A bombing against a bus in Jerusalem. Innocent people are dying because of these barbaric terrorist monsters. When are you leftist going to realize that you can't appease, you can't play nice, you can't negotiate? If you try being nice all that happens is more innocent women and children die at the hands of these terrorist monsters. It's time to get serious folks. Iraq and Afghanistan were a good start, but we are far from done. IT'S TIME TO GET REAL. IT IS TIME TO BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF THESE TERRORISTS ONCE AND FOR ALL!

Please. Continue not to play nice, see where that getcha

	20-08-2003 01:13									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: Originally posted by The diplomat We cut off the funds Stop buying oil, and half the problem is gone. Make sure the Arabs don't want to support affiliated organizations, and the other half of the problem is gone.

The first half is actually very easy to accomplish or at least to mostly accomplish. All you have to do is become more like France where you force people to ride mass transite, then tax the living **** out of gasoline, and finally use nuclear power instead of oil or gas powered plants. Once that is done you will see imports of Arab oil sink faster then the Titanic.

The Arabs, all 15 nations worth, export almost nothing else of value except oil. I mean the sum total of the nonpetroleum exports for the entire Arab world equals less then Denmark's yearly exports. Stop buying Arab oil and the Arab ability to turn their demented dreams of terror into reality virtually goes away. They go back to being poor, backwards, little fundimentalists whom no one cares about.

	20-08-2003 01:17									#51
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Or, on the other hand, such an economic about-face could incite them to even more violent acts, and rather than just the fundies being in on it, the impoverished oil-mongers will sign up as well...

Destitution only inspires people to greater risks.

	20-08-2003 01:17									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The first half is actually very easy to accomplish or at least to mostly accomplish. All you have to do is become more like France where you force people to ride mass transite, then tax the living **** out of gasoline, and finally use nuclear power instead of oil or gas powered plants. Once that is done you will see imports of Arab oil sink faster then the Titanic.

You cannot imagine how overjoyed I'd be if the US actually did that. Not that I enjoy seeing the Arabs being ruined, but I sure would looooooove to see the greenhouse gas sink
(I'd love as well to be able to visit the US despite not having a driver's licence )

	20-08-2003 01:30									#53
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "and where even the presence of the defendent in US hands is secret" Funny, about every authoritarian regime has used secret trials. What's next, state security courts a la Turkey?

Its too bad. Thats why it would be better if we werent under attack by a sophisticated terrorist organization, one which is skilled in intel gathering and tradecraft. But we are, and moaning about the logical consequences of that wont make it go away.

	20-08-2003 01:32									#54
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Please. Continue not to play nice, see where that getcha

so why did they target the UN, Paktis?? Why did they murder de mello??? what had he done that wasnt "nice"?

	20-08-2003 01:34									#55
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Its too bad. Thats why it would be better if we werent under attack by a sophisticated terrorist organization, one which is skilled in intel gathering and tradecraft. But we are, and moaning about the logical consequences of that wont make it go away.

There is virtually no security concern that cannot be addressed in a normal court. Secrecy, however, is anathema. It allows for such blatant abuse that it is intolerable. Anyone can "disappear", and how can any rights be secured if you have to rely on the mercy of the benevolency of the court? Mr LOTM just disappeared. Is he held by the government? "Sorry, that's a state secret, can't tell you".

	20-08-2003 01:36									#56
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The solution to terrorism:

Liberals and conservatives need to work together.

Liberals tend to be able to look deeper into things. You know what I'm trying ot say here. The liberals would be good at keeping the peace, etc etc etc.
Conservatives like to smash things, so they'd be good at smashing terrorists.

Cause it can't be "won". Period.
But it can't be "almost won" if these two opposing sides don't co-operate.

	20-08-2003 01:40									#57
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark ah the term is changed from "terrorism" to the amorphous "political violence" - thus establishing a moral equivalence in which a Paul Kagame is held to be the equivalent of an Idi Amin, in which a Shimon Peres is no better than Abu Nidal, in which a Bill Clinton is the equivalent of a Slobodan Milosevic and a Tony Blair the equivalent of Osama Bin Laden.

Amorphous? The meaning is rather clear.

As for "moral equivalence: there is no such things. Every act is different and independent. Now, if you believe what you just wrote, then I feel sorry for you in this regard.

Politcal violence can be effective or ineffective, as far as achieving your desired end goals. Since legitimacy is essentially decided by whomever ahs the greater capability for it, I leave that aside. The question is, what is your aim? And what is the best method to achieve it?

	20-08-2003 01:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Politcal violence can be effective or ineffective, as far as achieving your desired end goals. Since legitimacy is essentially decided by whomever ahs the greater capability for it, I leave that aside.

well then, between you and me there is nothing to discuss.

You wondered why there was so much concern about "only" 30 or so deaths, which is light compared to deaths from "political violence". If you dont understand why deaths from cold blooded murder arouse more concern than other deaths in "political violence" then I cant help you.

	20-08-2003 01:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II Oh yes... Israel has never used overwhelming military force... except when they occupy lands illegally and shell houses.

Overwhelming force is more like constantly shelling ALL of the houses

seems like both sides have morons, conservatives and liberals.

	20-08-2003 01:49									#60
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