27-08-2003 14:24									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh Is the trade unit the actual caravan unit, or is the freight? Obviously the latter generates far more mulah...

If i remember corectly there are two trade units.

	27-08-2003 14:47									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Art of War in my game Britain own south china, along with the afghanistan/kazakhstan region, arabia/palestine, and Alexandria...plus her original colonies. I, as the USA, own all cities from Panama up on the American continent. The Great American Empire..

And long may it remain so!

	27-08-2003 17:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling And long may it remain so!

Exccelllennttt...*steeples fingers*

	27-08-2003 17:45									#34
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oh, Exile, you really need an aircraft carrier unit...i've got biplanes and monoplanes flitting around my continent with nothing to do, and no way to get to Europe if (when) WW1 breaks out....

note: if you are wanting to keep it totally historical, the british DID have the cv hms furious in 1917..

	27-08-2003 23:29									#35
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Exile:

I hope you have editted the Civpedia in regard to the mining of deserts or the irrigation of mountains: contradictionary to the civpedia, they cannot be mined resp. irrigated.


[absurd mode]
Maybe a zeppelin fulfilling the role of an aircraft-carrier would be nice? When I build my first zeppelin, I did some research on the net on US zeppelins, and it proved the US experimented with them :drool:

(however, that was well after the Great War)
[/absurd mode]


seriously though, a 'mustard gas' unit could be fitting, if it's designed for the end of the scenario.


The 'problem' with trade has allready been mentioned, allthough in future games 'Free Trade' agreements will be less frequent/unconditional.
In any case, I have found that few players read the 'readme' files comming with scenario's, while I have spelled them out to see what it meant.
Trade IS very important in your scenario, and it gives a nice edge to this scenario.

I have no experience in scenario-building, but the way you discribe the problem with AI tech-aquisition, it seems that the roles of Mfg.Goods vs. Raw Materials should be swapped (meaning that humans should have the 'caravan' unit, and the AI the 'Freight' unit.)
Alternatively (or additionally), the cost (shields) for the Trade-unit should be greatly increased.

Given the vast amounts of $$ that can be made by trade, units in general could be made more expensive, or at least the intervals between them, thus decreasing the benefit of 'incremental buying'. Possibly by increasing the value of each 'row' of shields?


I'll try to think of a good unit, but at the moment, the US armed forces lack nothing

Germanos (USA at CFC)

	28-08-2003 08:37									#36
	Re: Agreed. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Exile Yes Nick, I agree. I've been playing with the scenario quite a bit myself and tech can be acquired at an accelerated rate if one trades aggressively, much more so if there is cooperative trading. Unfortunately, if I increase the paradigm, the scenario really fails in solo play--the AI will have too much difficulty gaining tech.

Have you considered releasing two versions of the scenario - one with a low tech paradigm for solo play, and another with a higher one for PBEMs? I imagine that this would be pretty easy to impliment.

On the topic of the extra unit, how about machine guns? While I see problems implimenting a unit based on a weapon which only worked well when used with other forces, machine guns really did revolutionise warfare at about the time of this scenario. They rendered Europan colonial expeditions all but invunerable from the natives, and once the Europeans worked out how to properly deploy the things they revolutionised war in Europe as well (not to mention being responcible for the blood bath in front of Port Arthur in the Russian-Japanese war).

	28-08-2003 12:30									#37
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Nick, the Machine Guns unit was the one I replaced.

	28-08-2003 15:59									#39
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Exile, I would seriously rethink about dropping the MG from the scen.

They are a big factor in the game...
I would get rid of the highlanders or guards....

	28-08-2003 17:54									#40
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yeah, the MG has saved my cities many times.

	28-08-2003 18:02									#41
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The MG also has a top notch sound effect!

Ratatatat!

	28-08-2003 23:54									#42
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I would suggest you dump some of the Barb-units. You have filled 6 slots with units all with the same purpose: To distract the players and spread chaos, as much as I like the surprising raids (I always love the thrill) too much unitspace used for my taste.

You could delete the Native horse, the war party on horse, the rebellious guy in the last row (looks arabic) and the elephant. This way you would get 4 slots which you can use for the main powers, for things like the gas, which I strongly support. You could use the Negros for the surprise-attacks. They could even take over the role of the elephant, let them spread all over the place to distract players.

And plz, plz, keep the MG. Besides the cool sound which some mentioned before, this weapon was the stunning technology in the late 19/early 20th century. The breakthrough in warfare. Before the MG, the attack was the superior tactic, after the MG the defence position got the advantage, the generals had to scrap all their knowledge and began from 0. Unfortunately they didn't adapt the tactic to the technology and we all know the outcome (Verdun anyone, all the slaughter in WWI due to wrong tactics). And the MG saved my cities, many, many,many times.

The same goes for the gas, a breakthrough in modern warfare, a must in a scen which shows all the technological development in 19/20th cent.

Oh and a very,very good idea to update your scen. Of course you put much work into it and AoW as well as the Imperialism scens were excellent created with all the historical event for uprisings, the government-trade concept and much more but the only weakpoint of your scens where the graphics. They’re looking a little bit old fashioned to me. With a more fresh and colourfull look your scen will be perfect.

Thanks for putting all the work into it and your sharing with the community.

PS: You’re the only guy I know with such a huuge Readme So much historical background, tips for every civ and all the descriptions. As far as I know only Henrik and Patient English were putting so much work into the Readme like you

	29-08-2003 00:33									#43
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First, thanks, Galvatron.

Next, this is what I need to know! AFAIKnew, no one ever used the Machine Gun unit! I thought it was a waste of time. Does anyone use the Ocean Liner? French Cavalry? Battlecruisers? Armored cruisers? What are the relative merits of the Steam Yacht compared to the Steamer? Which one gets built more often by players? I can think of a dozen more questions. Gimme your opinions.

Latest news; the barbs are a lot tougher, more cities now have coastal defenses, and there are some cities that are now not coastal. Some terrains have been changed. I'm looking for a new jungle tile. Any suggestions? The steamships are now a little more expensive, except for the Ironclad, which is now a lot more expensive. All the other ships are now a lot more expensive, except for the transports. I may increase the costs on ground units too. I'm still testing.

Also; I've got tech paradigm at 10. Can it go higher?

About barbs; As it is, I've got Arabs, Persians, Berbers, Afghans, Africans, Chinese, Native American, and several dozen central Asian ethnics all lumped under one "barbarian" umbrella. The different units give the thing flavor.

	29-08-2003 01:45									#44
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Exile, with due respect, my recommendations:

Machine gun: Essential.
Big liner: Essential.
Expidition: Ditch it.
Smaller liner: Ditch it.
Highlanders: Ditch it.
Guards: Ditch it.
Mfg goods: Make them appear later.
Zepplin: Top unit, Essential.
All sea units up to and including Light Cruiser: Essential.
Battleship: Essential. (I'd change it's name to dreadnought and free up a unit slot)
Destroyer: Essential.
Battlecruiser: Essential.
Germans: Give them Cavalry.
Barbs: Keep them as the are, they rock. (make them tougher, and make the elephant a real monster!)

Just my findings after extensive play...

	29-08-2003 04:47									#45
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maybe beef up the ironclad.

Carrier is a must. (I love Carriers, though...so i'm biased)
Ocean Liner isn't really needed.
The "Light Artillery" unit isn't really needed, since it has the same attack as field artillery..
I personally would keep the battleship unit, just because dreadnoughts didn't appear until 1910. Maybe find a battleship unit that doesn't have all it's guns along a center line...

Last edited by Art of War on 29-08-2003 at 08:56

	29-08-2003 04:49									#46
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i think you can crank up the tech paradigm to 20 or 30...

	29-08-2003 04:51									#47
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sorry for the continual post, but the Battlecruiser shouldn't be as powerful as the Battleship. It should be about equal offensive, 3/4 of the defense of a battleship, and maybe two more movement points, ie:

Battlecruiser
Offensive:
14

Defensive:
9

Movement:
15

	29-08-2003 07:16									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

Give it less hitpoints, if anything, to reflect the lack of armour.

And make Dreadnought a lot more expensive.

	29-08-2003 07:28									#49
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I prefer the steam yaught to the steamer - speed is more important then cost (and carrying capacity?)

	29-08-2003 12:50									#50
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I agree with case, the steamer should be ditched.

	29-08-2003 19:32									#51
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Curt,

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it. I'd suggest to you that you're thinking in narrow terms. For example, I never use the Machine Gun unit. I always build and use the Highlanders, small transports, and the Expedition (if I'm playing Britain, US, or France). I'm thinking about doing away with the large transport. In my mind, it's redundant.

It's all in how each individual plays the scenario--a matter of personal style and taste. Like it or not, it seems that whatever I change, it's going to disappoint someone. In the final analysis, the person to please is myself. Especially if I happen to be a perfectionist.

To all those naval warfare experts,

About predreadnought battleships, dreadnoughts, and battlecruisers (not to mention armored cruisers); My Jane's book on Battleships (I forget the exact title). Read. Learn. Don't make me have to go get a quote.

Then, for some units, there is the matter of atmosphere. I realised in playtesting that, simply because I didn't ever want to use a given unit or purchase a specific wonder or improvement, that didn't mean that someone else wouldn't find a unique use for it or enjoy playing with it. The African stuff gives the scenario a touch of flavor that I was seeking when finishing it up. If it fits the period, and it functions properly, leave it alone--someone else probably enjoys it.

I am thinking about keeping the Machine Gun unit since so many people seem to like it. Any thoughts about ditching the large transport?

The input I really need now is the "use patterns" by players (I REALLY watch the pbems, but they just don't convey enough information of the detailed sort). I'd like to know if the units are well-balanced--should a given unit be more or less powerful? The unit mix is not going to change much. What will make the scenario better, and consequently more FUN, is to create better relationships between the various elements of the game. While preserving the flavor of the period.

For example; the Steam Warship, by itself, and not a veteran, has a small chance of successfully attacking a coastal city. If it's a veteran, it's just the opposite; there is only a small chance of the attack not succeeding. However, if the city has defenses, there is very little chance that a single Steam Warship will win the battle, veteran or not. I NEED information like this. This is the kind of info that allows me to tweak for best results.

Keep the feedback coming. Right now, I'm finished with everything. I'm waiting on some unit graphics and looking for a new jungle tile. That's it, and I'll kick the new version out the door.

Last edited by Exile on 29-08-2003 at 19:38

	29-08-2003 23:35									#52
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Well you did ask for suggestions!

I await the new version with eagerness!

Although I may eventually edit myself a 'private version' with all my favourite units!

The bottom line is this: MGE needs more unit slots!

	30-08-2003 00:30									#53
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I do use the steamer - for trade, at least. I don't build them, but the steamers at the start of the game are very useful. They could all be replaced with steam yachts, though.

I have built 1 large freighter in my game so far - it was for an invasion fleet. But 2 ordinary freighters would have sufficed.

I find armoured cruisers quite useful, being both fast enough to control an ocean and powerful enough to kill lots of steam warships and other naval units. Thus, these get used for naval superiority and defense of trade routes. OTOH, I haven't used light cruisers at all, because they're too weak to justify building them.

Both battleships and dreadnoughts have also come in handy; I use them for shore bombardment.

I haven't even researched the tech for highlanders, and I hardly build any machine guns.

	30-08-2003 01:27									#54
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Goin,
Your use and analysis of the role of the Armored Cruiser is precisely the way they were intended to be used.

Light vs. Heavy or Armored cruisers; when you look at simple tonnages for the ships, you'll quickly see the differentiation between the light cruisers and other types. The light cruisers are usually not much more than very heavy destroyers, with the resemblance becoming closer over time. The armored and later heavy cruisers were capital ships. They carried much less armor, lighter armament, and were not nearly as broad in the beam as battleships.

To really get a good feel for cruiser warfare during this period, type in "World war one naval combat" into google and take a look at the first site that comes up. There are some very detailed descriptions of the battles that occurred early in the war between light cruisers, armored cruisers, and battlecruisers (not to mention some great stuff on Jutland!). (It's the Darren Millford UK site)

	30-08-2003 05:14									#55
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Exile,

As it happens, I just read "the price of admiralty" by Keegan (including a great chapter on Jutland and WWI naval warfare). Though he doesn't talk much about the minor battles in WWI (he is more concerned with the fleet actions), he is very informative about the period.

Keegan discusses the light cruiser as a response to torpedo boats and destroyers; they were well-armed and armoured enough to destroy anything with torpedoes (thus protecting the dreadnoughts) but too small to take on anything else.

Looking back, I might suggest creating a new unit: the torpedo boat. It would be essentially a cheaper submarine that you can see, and would be able to take potshots at capital ships. This would allow the light cruiser to fulfill its intended function (wreaking havoc on lighter ships such as torpedo boats). You could also use this unit to replace destroyers, or just use destroyers to fulfill this role (which is what they came to eventually do).

	31-08-2003 00:44									#56
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Goin, look at the ImpRead file and you'll see my own attempt to address the Destroyer/torpedo boat thing.

I've received a whole batch of new unit graphics today and I can say that there will be very few of the older unit graphics remaining. I am still searching for an interesting Jungle terrain tile.

I am seriously considering setting up some events for each player that give each major empire (Fr, GB, US, Rus, Ger, Japan) a SPY occasionally.

The interval would be set at 150 or 200. Very few spies would appear during the course of the game, and each one would be a precious resource. The purpose is to provide about 4 or 5 spies during the length of the scenario to each player. If the 150 or 200 number isn't quite right, I'd tweak it until it was.

I like the extra dimension added by the addition of espionage. What I detest is the abuse of the spies' abilities. By providing them only once-in-a-blue-moon to the players, I resolve the problem of abuse and put something back in the game that will add to the fun. Hopefully.

Feedback?

	31-08-2003 01:06									#57
	Got spare money?

1. Maybe use the missile flag w. torpedo boat

2. You might be unaware that the diplomat/spy options are entirely editable, unlike those of the settler/engineer. Just delete the undesired lines in the Game txt. file. Of course, only the human player is affected. The AI carries on with a full range of spy abilities.

	31-08-2003 01:20									#58
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quote: The bottom line is this: MGE needs more unit slots!

I was just thinking the same thing for ToT! Unit slots are like a closet....

	31-08-2003 02:52									#59
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I think the spy thing is a good idea.

I also agree with Tecumseh's idea of giving destroyers/torpedo boats the missile flag, to represent that most, if not all, of the boats in the flotilla would be destroyed after a massed attack.

This would make gameplay more historical, in that light cruisers, not destroyers, would be used for raiding shipping (as they were actually used) and destroyers/torpedo boats would be used for attacking stronger units in the hopes of sinking or at least weakening them (as they were actually used). You may also want to make them 8/3 with 1/5 HP/FP, or something like that.

	31-08-2003 03:03									#60
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where can I get an editor for ToT?