25-08-2003 12:00									#1
	Turn Planning/Reports Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Given that, IMO, it would probably be a better idea to condense all of our turn discussion and planning into a single thread rather than spreading it all over the place... here is the thread to do it in.

The current turn is: 2137

Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 24-09-2003 at 07:00

	26-08-2003 11:06									#2
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2131:

Riots in Otkrietia-Discovery. Citizen changed to Doctor.

Budushii Dvor switched to Rec. Commons from Former. 2 Mins wasted.

Zoloto-Gold switched to Rec. Commons from Scout. No mins wasted.

CP reaches destination. Climactic Research founded. This takes us past the first Efficiency Limit.

Zoloto-Gold now has a Drone as its only citizen if left alone. Switched to Doctor.

Demo in 2 turns. Recommend switching to Demo ASAP, to allow continued expansion, unless we can somehow manage to establish enough trade to be able to hurry those Rec. Commons.

Foil moves south, towards the unknown landmass that the Sensor Pod a while back uncovered the shores of. Stops off on the way to drop the Scout on a small island with a pod.

Mir. Lab to grow turn after next. Recommend rushing Rec. Commons next turn.

	03-09-2003 16:47									#3
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2133:

Not a huge amount to report, but we got Ethical Calculus and started on Gene Splicing, and Uni Base finished it's second crawler, which is now harvesting minerals. It's now stockpiling crawlers for a VW rushbuild.

	03-09-2003 20:24									#4
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Hello to everyone from the newest member of PUT. I have a few questions:

1)

Are only the turn-players able to access the save files and have a look of what's happening in-game? If yes, I assume the rest of us keep track of the game by the help of the turn-players' reports.

2)

If I've understood correctly, we're trying to build the VW and are stockpiling crawlers for it. How many bases have been dedicated for the production of crawlers? How many crawlers do we have ready? How are we going to use our ECs to get the VW done as soon as possible? Will we be upgrading crawlers or rush building crawlers or doing neither? If we are upgrading crawlers, will we try to prototype synthmetal? When are we going to be completing the project by the current estimates?

EDIT:

3)

When would it be a good idea to start building probe garrisons in our coastal cities?

Last edited by Minute Mirage on 03-09-2003 at 21:44

	04-09-2003 03:06									#5
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Just a comment about building and rushing recreation commons. In how many bases are we planning to build a recreation commons before finishing the VW? How much energy are we spending on rushing the recreation commons and how much energy are planning on saving for the rushing/upgrading of crawlers?

	04-09-2003 14:01									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage Hello to everyone from the newest member of PUT. I have a few questions: 1) Are only the turn-players able to access the save files and have a look of what's happening in-game? If yes, I assume the rest of us keep track of the game by the help of the turn-players' reports.

No, anyone can access the save file from the Turn Tracking Thread - the password has been posted somewhere on the private forum.

quote: 2) If I've understood correctly, we're trying to build the VW and are stockpiling crawlers for it. How many bases have been dedicated for the production of crawlers? How many crawlers do we have ready? How are we going to use our ECs to get the VW done as soon as possible? Will we be upgrading crawlers or rush building crawlers or doing neither? If we are upgrading crawlers, will we try to prototype synthmetal? When are we going to be completing the project by the current estimates?

We've currently only got one base building crawlers (an oversight which should be rectified - thank you for pointing that out), which, if it started on the project directly, would finish it in 15 turns.

quote: EDIT: 3) When would it be a good idea to start building probe garrisons in our coastal cities?

I must admit, I haven't given it the slightest thought until now - but I'd say not quite yet.

	04-09-2003 14:47									#7
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus No, anyone can access the save file from the Turn Tracking Thread - the password has been posted somewhere on the private forum.

Googlie edited the post, so the password is not there. Could someone mail it to me? Email addy: xxx_minutemirage@hotmail.com_xxx minus the x's.

	04-09-2003 15:08									#8
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Sent.

	04-09-2003 21:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Sent.

And received. Thank you.

Now, I noticed that the drones have completed the WP. When did this happen?

	05-09-2003 09:00									#10
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I don't know.

This is the first I've heard of it.

	06-09-2003 19:12									#11
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Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 22:16

	06-09-2003 20:57									#12
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Considering how important the Virtual World is for us, I wanted to try how fast we could get it built. The best I came up with is in 2139, with 133 ECs spent for it. This is how I think it could be done:


2134:
48 ECs, 2 crawlers

Rehome crawler on (78,38) to Mir Lab, then move it back to the same square and resume convoying minerals.

University Base:

Add stockpile energy to queue - 2 extra ECs next turn.
Change worker from (77,37) to forest (just finished) in (75,39).

Production status: Crawler (19/27), 13 minerals/turn.

Mir Lab:

Change production to crawler. Move worker from square (79,37) to the forest (just finished) in square (81,35).

Production status: Crawler (0/27), 12 minerals/turn.

Koppernigk Observatory:

Change production from colony pod to crawler for a loss of one mineral.

Production status: Crawler (11/27), 3 minerals/turn.

Monitoring Station:

Change production from recycling tanks to trance scout defensive (prototype) for a loss of three minerals. The idea is to get synthmetal armor prototyped, so we can later upgrade a crawler into a synthmetal trance crawler.

Production status: Trance Scout Defensive (12/27), 5 minerals/turn.

2135:
76 ECs, 3 crawlers

University Base:

Crawler finished. Change production from stockpile energy to crawler. Move worker back to (77,37) and move the crawler to forest in (75,39) and start convoying minerals.

Production status: Crawler (5/27), 14 minerals/turn.

Mir Lab:

Hurry crawler for 9 ECs.

Production status: Crawler (15/27), 12 minerals/turn.

Koppernigk Observatory:

Production status: Crawler (14/27), 3 minerals/turn.

Monitoring Station:

Production status: Trance Scout Defensive (17/27), 5 minerals/turn.

Formers:

Move both formers in (81,35) to (80,34) via (80,36) and start planting a forest.

2136:
93 ECs, 4 crawlers

University Base:

Use 10 ECs to hurry 4 minerals, so that we have 10 minerals carried over and can rush next turn. Add stockpile energy to queue to get 5 ECs next turn.

Production status: Crawler (23/27), 14 minerals/turn.

Mir Lab:

Crawler finished, move crawler to (80,34) and start convoying 2 minerals/turn from the forest that was just completed.

Production status: Crawler (0/27), 14 minerals/turn.

Koppernigk Observatory:

Production status: Crawler (17/27), 3 minerals/turn.

Monitoring Station:

Production status: Trance Scout Defensive (22/27), 5 minerals/turn.

2137:
114 ECs, 5 crawlers.

University Base:

Crawler finished. Move it to (81,39) and start convoying 1 mineral/turn. Hurry next crawler for 6 ECs.

Production status: Crawler (12/27), 15 minerals/turn.

Mir Lab:

Hurry 3 minerals for 8 ECs, so that we have 4 minerals carried over. Again, add stockpile energy to queue for 2 ECs.

Production status: Crawler (17/27), 14 minerals/turn.

Koppernigk Observatory:

Hurry crawler for 10 ECs.

Production status: Crawler (24/27), 3 minerals/turn.

Monitoring Station:

Trance scout defensive finished, synthmetal armor now prototyped.

2138:
118 ECs, 8 crawlers.

Change Mir Lab production to Virtual World and cash in all crawlers there except for one. Use the workshop to upgrade it to synthmetal trance (cost of upgrade= 90 ECs) and then cash it in.

2139:

Virtual World finished in Mir Lab!



Do you think this would work? Are there faster ways for building it? Or should we take the risk and build it later than 2139?

	07-09-2003 13:13									#13
	2134 Report Put an end to popups!

MM's plan looks like a good one, and in the absence of any objections from anyone else, we'll follow it for now.

Anyway, other than following MM's proposed plan, not much happened - our formers are continuing to build a road up from Monitoring Station, and our scouting foil is continuing to explore, but that's about it.

	07-09-2003 13:23									#14
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btw, Minute Mirage: Given that we never did get around to appointing anyone to plan our production, would you be interested in taking the job? It would be nice to have plans like that one available when it came to deciding what to build in our various bases.

	07-09-2003 15:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus btw, Minute Mirage: Given that we never did get around to appointing anyone to plan our production, would you be interested in taking the job? It would be nice to have plans like that one available when it came to deciding what to build in our various bases.

This is my first democracy game, so I'm not sure what responsibilities the job would include. I could make suggestions and maybe even plans about the production in our bases, but any decisions should be made collectively and the more experienced players should have the final word. Not that very many people would seem to be visiting this board.

	07-09-2003 15:53									#16
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Well, planning is mainly what you'd be doing anyway. In a DG where we had more people, you'd have to be elected and your position would be a bit more clearly defined... however, in this case, there's no need for that, and basically you'd just be the one making suggestions for what to build, and coming up with plans (like the one you did for the VW).

	07-09-2003 16:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Well, planning is mainly what you'd be doing anyway. In a DG where we had more people, you'd have to be elected and your position would be a bit more clearly defined... however, in this case, there's no need for that, and basically you'd just be the one making suggestions for what to build, and coming up with plans (like the one you did for the VW).

I guess that's fine then. If nobody else wants it, I can take the job.

	08-09-2003 01:00									#18
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Sounds like a plan. Congratulations on your new position. Just FYI, there's no set style on how to run things -- you can lead by gathering input from everyone
(which is what I generally try to do with Science), or you can lead by coming up with stellar plans that persuade others based on their promised effectiveness. There's no set procedure, which seems appropriate for a Frontier society. (Did we go Democracy when we got to EthCal, by the way? Even if we have, we have few enough people and a broad enough consensus that polling doesn't really seem all that necessary.)

	08-09-2003 01:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by AdamTG02 Sounds like a plan. Congratulations on your new position. Just FYI, there's no set style on how to run things -- you can lead by gathering input from everyone (which is what I generally try to do with Science), or you can lead by coming up with stellar plans that persuade others based on their promised effectiveness. There's no set procedure, which seems appropriate for a Frontier society. (Did we go Democracy when we got to EthCal, by the way? Even if we have, we have few enough people and a broad enough consensus that polling doesn't really seem all that necessary.)

We haven't changed to Democracy yet, and if we happen to get the VW, we're not in an absolute hurry to do that at least as far as b-drones are concerned. Anyway, polling does seem quite unnecessary with only half a dozen people.

Oh and btw, is there an official name for this extremely important position?

	08-09-2003 11:47									#20
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No, we haven't changed to Demo yet, and until we can finish the first phase of our expansion, we probably shouldn't (those ten mins are very handy).

	09-09-2003 00:28									#21
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Makes sense.

	09-09-2003 08:45									#22
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Hey everybody.

New username for me, new message from the Pirates for us.

quote: Honored Crimson Sunrise This message is merely to touch base with our friends. During my absence I see that we had some successful dealings and I wish for our friendship to prosper. It is my hope to begin amiable discussions so that we might deepen our friendship. I have no instructions to pursue any specific trades at the moment but we are traders, willing to consider all sorts of dealings. If there is ANYTHING you desire of us, please do not hesitate to contact me. It is our greatest wish to work together in friendship to our mutual benefit. Ambassador Flubber

Whatcha think, everyone?

	09-09-2003 09:34									#23
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Sounds good. We should probably weigh our options before making an offer, but we do know that they have DocFlex, which we might find very useful... so that's one possible item that we could seek out a price for.

But just what are we willing to trade for this technology, given that the Pirates are our competitors? Ideally, we'd trade them a tech for an SP that we don't want, but they might find useful enough to give us their specialty. However, I'm not precisely sure if there are any techs which fit this description.

The technologies we have available are:

Centauri Ecology
Doctrine: Mobility (which we know the Pirates have)
Information Networks
Biogenetics
Social Psych
Industrial Base
Ethical Calculus
Planetary Networks
Secrets of the Human Brain
Industrial Automation

The Pirates may have many or most of these; I'm unsure of exactly what they have. But of these, I think the one that is the best trade for us is Ethical Calculus. It allows them to take Democracy, which would encourage them to adopt a less militaristic strategy, discouraging an attack. Because it leads to Gene Splicing and beyond, it's valuable enough for them to give us Flexibility for it. And it gives no Secret Projects, which works to our benefit. True, it might allow the Pirates to begin growing sooner... but their growth would be of limited effect without the infrastructure necessary to support it, which would come only with time and terraforming. EthCal will not help them terraform quicker.

If they do pass us on Loyalty and Integrity and get the Citizen's Defense Force, at least they're mostly sea, and thus can't realize its full effects; it'd help them against marines, but not against ships.

Another option is to offer Secrets of the Human Brain at first, and then EthCal if that's turned down. With the free tech already reaped, and the Empath Guild from its successor tech Centauri Empathy disabled, Secrets doesn't give them very much. However, the danger is that they realize this, and ask for unfair bargains on their end in turn.

Would we in any case be willing to give two techs, or a tech plus ECs, for DocFlex? I myself might be willing to give EthCal and Secrets, but that'd be the limit. (Note I said "might.") ECs are likely off the table if we want to complete the VW on schedule -- but, for bargaining purposes, we had best not let the pirates know that.

Any thoughts? Criticisms? Counter-assessments?

Last edited by AdamTG02 on 09-09-2003 at 09:39

	09-09-2003 12:10									#24
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The pirates would seem to lack only three techs that we have (according to the in-game trade screen): Biogenetics, Ethical Calculus and Secrets Of The Human Brain.

I'd personally be looking for Applied Physics at least in some trade, because we are going to need the military techs sooner or later and it would be better to spend our time researching something other than level 1 techs. I think it's quite likely that the pirates have AP, because they have met the cyborgs and traded with them, and IIRC the cyborgs start with AP.

Not that we shouldn't look for Doctrine: Flexibility, if they are willing to part with it. Perhaps we should offer them two level 2 techs (SotHB and Ethical Calculus) for one level 2 tech (D:F) and one level 1 tech (AP)? Although we shouldn't probably offer this deal at the beginning, instead starting with an offer of Ethical Calculus and 20 ECs (we can afford about that) for D:F. This would of course mean that they have almost all the techs we have, but it would speed our research towards Doctrine: Airpower and Mind/Machine Interface.

Now, at what stage would be willing to trade? We haven't decided yet what techs to research after Gene Splicing, but should we continue to head for the restriction lifting techs, then gaining a few techs via trading would slow our research. However, if we wait too long, the pirates may already have obtained the techs we'd like to trade elsewhere. I do think that if we can get Doctrine: Flexibility, we should take it as soon as possible, so that we can build probe foils or whatever to really start exploring and meeting other trading partners.

	09-09-2003 12:41									#25
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I bow to your superior judgment.

Once we decide what - if anything - we want to trade, I'll write Flubber back.

	10-09-2003 08:23									#26
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I agree with most of what has been said. If those three techs are the three we choose from, it seems to me that Biogenetics is the one we'll want to hold back -- as the Human Genome Project would be a very useful SP for us. As for what to trade for, can we "trade" for the Cyborg commlink frequency? I'm aware that we have all the PC commlinks already, mechanics-wise, but have agreed not to use them. Can we trade with the Pirates for the rights to contact the Cybernetic Consciousness? If so, that would be a higher priority than Applied Physics in my mind.

	10-09-2003 11:32									#27
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quote: Originally posted by AdamTG02 I agree with most of what has been said. If those three techs are the three we choose from, it seems to me that Biogenetics is the one we'll want to hold back -- as the Human Genome Project would be a very useful SP for us. As for what to trade for, can we "trade" for the Cyborg commlink frequency? I'm aware that we have all the PC commlinks already, mechanics-wise, but have agreed not to use them. Can we trade with the Pirates for the rights to contact the Cybernetic Consciousness? If so, that would be a higher priority than Applied Physics in my mind.

I'm not sure how great a chance we have at getting the HGP, but it would certainly be nice for us. As for the Cyborgs, I do agree that getting into contact with them would be very important. Perhaps a trade of Secrets of the Human Brain + Ethical Calculus for Doctrine: Flexibility and the Cyborgs' comm link?

	12-09-2003 06:15									#28
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So, what should I tell Flubber when I write back?

	12-09-2003 12:44									#29
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I'd say tell him we're interested in acquiring Doc:Flex and the CyCon commlink, and suggest Ethical Calculus and some ECs as a prelimianry offer - if they reject it, we can throw in Secrets as well.

	12-09-2003 21:02									#30
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Well, the Hive have finally finished their turn and it looks like they were busy: they have started two secret projects, namely The Human Genome Project and The Planetary Transit System. How likely is it for them to have Industrial Automation at this point? Any thoughts on how long it would take them to finish the projects?

Another issue I've thought about is the defence of our bases. I'd feel a lot safer if at least the coastal bases and the ones next to the fungus had a trance scout to defend them against sealurks and mind worms.