01-10-2003 16:00									#91
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Well, we can assume it's a positive response then I'd say. Did they pre-accept? We probably should've specified that.

	01-10-2003 16:32									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic Well, we can assume it's a positive response then I'd say. Did they pre-accept? We probably should've specified that.

Yes, the deal is pre-accepted. If we accept the deal straight away we get Doctrine:Flexibility and research Gene Splicing at the same turn. The choices for the next technology are as follow:

Doctrine: Initiative
Ecological Engineering
Progenitor Psych
Applied Physics.

However, if we don't accept their offer straight away, we will be 3 research points short of Gene Splicing and get it next turn. Thus if we are to accept their deal we should accept it straight away and offer Ethical Calculus for them afterwards.

What is the next technology we should research? I'd be inclined to go for Ecological Engineering.

	01-10-2003 21:22									#93
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Agreed. Of the available choices, Ecological Engineering gives us the most. Once we can fully exploit those boreholes, we can close the power gap between us and the Hive.

	01-10-2003 21:49									#94
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Agreed and agreed. Who's playing the turn this time then?

	01-10-2003 21:55									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic Agreed and agreed. Who's playing the turn this time then?

You should probably play it, unless GT has indicated to you that he wants to play the turn. The other teams will be shocked if we manage to get a turn done under 48 hours, though.

	02-10-2003 08:20									#96
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Playing the turn now. No surprises that the Pirates have all the commlinks, have a Pact with the Borgs, and a Treaty with the Hive. What tech was I supposed to give to the Pirates?

	02-10-2003 08:42									#97
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Amazing, we're now on the top of the tech heap, and we're mkaing 28 credits a turn. I overrushed the CC at Uni Base, giving us 10 minerals there to begin with next turn, and allowing us to pump out a crawler in 1 turn.

	02-10-2003 09:33									#98
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Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 22:19

	02-10-2003 10:09									#99
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Technology wise....and not much else sadly. At least it gives us some bartering chips I suppose.

	02-10-2003 14:56									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic Playing the turn now. No surprises that the Pirates have all the commlinks, have a Pact with the Borgs, and a Treaty with the Hive. What tech was I supposed to give to the Pirates?

We were supposed to give them Ethical Calculus, unless the deals have changed. Anyway, I noted some things about the pirates, now that we have infiltration on them:

They have two techs we don't have: Doctrine: Initiative and Progenitor Psych. They are also researching Adaptive Economics, which will be completed in 12 turns. They are getting 30 research points per turn, as opposed to our 73,2.

The Pirates are running Frontier/Simple/Wealth and getting 21 ECs/turn, while we are getting 28 ECs/turn. The reason their income is this good even under simple, is most likely their higher commerce income, seeing how they are pacted with the Cyborgs and treatied with the Hive.

The Pirates appear to be stockpiling crawlers. They have currently two of them and five more are in production. My guess is that they are going to build The Maritime Control Center. They have also three foil probes ready.


I think we should ask the pirates what their relationship with the Cyborgs is. The Cyborgs are likely the faction that supplied the Hive with techs, and if we're planning a war against the Hive, we need to know where the Cyborgs stand.

I think the Pirates will soon ask us to trade Gene Splicing to them, now that they can see we have it. What should we ask for it or should we trade it at all? Of the two new techs the pirates have, Progenitor Psych isn't very useful by itself, and Doctrine: Initiative isn't needed just yet, IMO. The MCC would be nice of course, but I think the Pirates will build it. What we do want from the Pirates are the comm links and their map, but is this enough for a very valuable tech like Gene Splicing?

	02-10-2003 22:39									#101
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Has the Pact been signed? Is that how we know this about the Pirates? If so, we have their maps.

Commlinks are thus less important, as we can simply visit the bases on the maps ourselves. But trading for them could save us some time. How about trading Gene Splicing for one or two of the commlinks plus Progenitor Psych -- which leads to the Planetary Energy Grid and 3-Res armor? Since the Pirates seem to be operating on the assumption that second-level techs are more valuable than first-level techs, they may agree to it.

What do you all think?

	02-10-2003 23:58									#102
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quote: Originally posted by AdamTG02 Has the Pact been signed? Is that how we know this about the Pirates? If so, we have their maps.

Yes, yes and no. The pact has been signed but we don't have their maps. Being new to PBEM, I'm not sure if this is what normally happens when a pact is signed.

quote: Originally posted by AdamTG02 Commlinks are thus less important, as we can simply visit the bases on the maps ourselves. But trading for them could save us some time. How about trading Gene Splicing for one or two of the commlinks plus Progenitor Psych -- which leads to the Planetary Energy Grid and 3-Res armor? Since the Pirates seem to be operating on the assumption that second-level techs are more valuable than first-level techs, they may agree to it. What do you all think?

I'd say Gene Splicing is worth more than that. It's a level three tech that has probably been researched only by us at the moment. It leads to very useful technologies, i.e. Synthetic Fossil Fuels, Bio-Engineering and Ecological Engineering. If we were to trade Gene Splicing away, we'd have to be sure that the Pirates don't trade it away to the Cyborgs, whom they are pacted with. We are currently leading in technology, and we don't want the others to catch up with us. Of course, the real benefit for the pirates from getting Gene Splicing would be the nutrient restriction lifting, which would allow them to fully utilise the kelp farms.

Progenitor Psych by itself isn't very useful to us. It does lead into Adaptive Economics, which allows the building of The Planetary Energy Guild, a very useful SP. However, the Pirates are already researching this tech, and they are likely to build the SP if they beat us to it. The question is, should we use our time to research a tech the Pirates are already researching, or should we trade for that tech later?

This leads me to the diplomatic issues at hand. I'm personally a bit unsure what the Pirates' intentions are. They offered this pact to us and they claimed they might even be interested in a co-operative victory. However, they are also in pact with the Cyborgs, whose diplomatic leanings are not known to us. Are the Cyborgs friends of the Hive or would they join in an attack against them? As we have discussed, we believe that the Hive has received tech trades that have helped them to build the SPs so quickly. The most likely faction to have done this is the Cyborgs, which makes them friends with the Hive, and our possible enemy in case of a war. We need to discuss the role of the Cyborgs with the Pirates.

Of course, another diplomatic matter is whether we want to refuse trading techs with the Pirates. We assumedly want them to be our friends, which means we should be co-operative, at least to some extent.

	03-10-2003 02:12									#103
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Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 22:19

	03-10-2003 02:36									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Unlike single-player games (where maps are automatically traded with the AI upon pacting), maps are a tradeable item in PBEMs between human factions Thus you don't automatically get the pactmate's maps unless they specifically give them in trade G.

That's what I figured, but thanks for confirming it.

Now, I think we should suggest a trade of maps with the Pirates.

	03-10-2003 07:16									#105
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It's possible that the Pirates, knowing that we don't really pose a threat to them, Pacted with us only for the Commerce income, and the potential to exploit our superior research. Hell, it's probably more than likely that's their only reasons. And I'd say they already had infiltration on us, and so knew we were coming close to Gene Splicing.

	03-10-2003 09:29									#106
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Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 22:18

	03-10-2003 09:35									#107
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Flubber says that the Ethical Calculus deal has not been consummated. Did we have a technological error?

	03-10-2003 10:16									#108
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I couldn't get confirmation of what tech I was supposed to send them in time, so I didn't send one. I thought I'd included that in my post above, reporting on the turn, but it seems not. That's what I get for trying to do 3 things at once. *Sigh* Send them my apologies and promise them that they'll have it next turn.

	03-10-2003 10:43									#109
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Don't worry about it - it's no big disaster.

	03-10-2003 13:47									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie You can learn a lot from your new pactmate's intelligence services. Re-open 2139 (the turn that you confirmed the Pact with PEACE) Now click on the commlinks tab, and then right click on Drogue. This brings up the basic intelligence that every faction has on each other. But look just above the row of symbols at the bottom, and you'll see the Peace logo. Click on that, and suddenly you are tapping into the PEACE infiltration network. From that you can see that the Cyborgs have only met the Pirates (whom they are pacted with) and have the commlinks for the Angels and the Believers. They have not yet been in contact with the Hive, Drones or yourselves - (otherwise there would also be an "informal truce" label with those they have contacted) (likewise any other faction, not having met you, could do the same and right click on your name then click on the PEACE logo to tap their infiltration data on you) Not a cheat - nor a bug, but indeed a feature that was covered in one of the early releases by Firaxis (pactmate 'sniffer' packets, I believe) So, to summarize, the Cycon couldn't have assisted the Hive in their research, or it would have shown G.

I didn't know that, thanks. I had assumed that messing with the commlink buttons of the factions we haven't met yet is forbidden but it seems this isn't so? Or is it only OK if a faction you have met has met the faction whose commlink you're playing with?

On a related issue, you said earlier that it's acceptable to check what techs you have that an another faction doesn't have by offering these techs to them in the trade screen. Is it OK to do this to factions we haven't met yet, i.e. the Hive, the Cyborgs and the Drones?



Now, if we still assume that the Hive has gotten techs from somewhere we are left with three choices: the Pirates, the AI or the Drones. If the Hive has met them, the AI is actually a possibility, considering the tweaks Googlie has given them. The Drones are not very likely, considering their slow research. Perhaps we should ask the pirates what techs they have traded with the Hive, and how they think the Hive reached Industrial Automation so quickly. They might lie, of course, but I'd still feel wiser if I knew what they have to say.

	03-10-2003 13:53									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic It's possible that the Pirates, knowing that we don't really pose a threat to them, Pacted with us only for the Commerce income, and the potential to exploit our superior research. Hell, it's probably more than likely that's their only reasons. And I'd say they already had infiltration on us, and so knew we were coming close to Gene Splicing.

That's possible, but there's no harm done so far. We also benefit from the increased commerce and we haven't traded Gene Splicing yet. I'm a bit worried about the infiltration aspect, because the Pirates do have probe foils and we don't have probe defenses of any kind.

	03-10-2003 18:46									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage I didn't know that, thanks. I had assumed that messing with the commlink buttons of the factions we haven't met yet is forbidden but it seems this isn't so? Or is it only OK if a faction you have met has met the faction whose commlink you're playing with?

It is allowed to pry into all factions, whether met or not

quote: On a related issue, you said earlier that it's acceptable to check what techs you have that an another faction doesn't have by offering these techs to them in the trade screen. Is it OK to do this to factions we haven't met yet, i.e. the Hive, the Cyborgs and the Drones?

As above, it is allowed to investigate techs for all factions, whether met or not

G.

	03-10-2003 19:14									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie It is allowed to pry into all factions, whether met or not As above, it is allowed to investigate techs for all factions, whether met or not G.

Once again, thanks for confirming this.

Ok then, here are the techs we have and the other factions don't:

Hive:

Industrial Base
Social Psych
Doctrine: Mobility
Doctrine: Flexibility
Ethical Calculus
Secrets of the Human Brain
Gene Splicing

Cyborgs:

Ethical Calculus
Secrets Of The Human Brain
Gene Splicing

Pirates:

Biogenetics
Ethical Calculus
Secrets of the Human Brain
Gene Splicing

Drones:

Biogenetics
Doctrine: Mobility
Doctrine: Flexibility
Secrets of the Human Brain
Gene Splicing


This means that the Hive has indeed traded techs, because they haven't researched Industrial Base yet. We're also the only human faction to have researched Gene Splicing.

	06-10-2003 10:58									#114
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I don't have many comments regarding the turn 2140, except that I'd still rather build a farm than a solar collector in the square (77,37). I'd also like to build some probe foils in University Base sooner or later.

	07-10-2003 16:33									#115
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Turn summary

Former switched to farm from solar collector in (77,37). The "accumulated turns" were not lost, and the farm was completed as of this turn.

University Base has begun production of another Supply Crawler. This was rushed for 26 credits to give us a 10 min overrun again.

A 0-1-1 Probe, the "Librarian", was designed, but not begun production anywhere.

All bases which finished construction have begun creating more crawlers.

Zoloto Gold production switched to a Former from Supply Crawler (We need more Forests for these things to crawl)

Our scout at (11,27) has sighted a monolith. It's likely that another faction may be nearby.

Pirates have all the commlinks.

Hive now has Doc. Mobile.

	10-10-2003 02:23									#116
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I'll just post some random comments based on my observations of turn 2141:

The Pirates have signed a treaty with the Drones and a pact with the Hive. This means that they are now pacted with all the human faction except the Drones and we can't by any means be certain of their diplomatic leanings.

Some spy information on the Hive:

They're pacted with both the Pirates and the Drones.

They have researched or otherwise obtained the following techs:

Biogenetics
Information Networks
Applied Physics
Doctrine: Mobility
Centauri Ecology
Planetary Networks
Doctrine: Flexibility
Doctrine: Loyalty
Ethical Calculus
Industrial Economics
Industrial Automation
Gene Splicing

They are researching Ecological Engineering.


Archaic, I wonder if it's prudent to use the in-game communication channels? If I've understood it correctly, the messages are somehow visible in the save file.

	10-10-2003 02:45									#117
	Inflate your Upload Space

Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 22:20

	10-10-2003 05:00									#118
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I'm going to have to get over that nasty habit. While I generally assume people are going to play fair and by the book, frankly, I don't trust Tass as far as I could throw him.

	11-10-2003 22:32									#119
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Archaic, I trust you will be playing the turn? The 48 hour limit is soon approaching.

	12-10-2003 07:04									#120
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I didn't even know the turn was ours. If you're able, could you play it? I won't be back home with my SMAC/X for another 6 hours or so from this post.