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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:27
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There is nothing in there about the timescale for trading contacts. We might want to specify a trade of contact within a turn or two of first contact, or maybe not.
If we think we will make first contact then the only real advantage is in quick trades. We have one tech that CFC doesn't, and we know that the other continent only recently (c. turn 96) made the Medieval era too, so we could potentially get there to trade Feudalism to them for Engineering/Monotheism. It is unlikely any of them have more than the first tier of Med advances, as I doubt GNPs allow anyone a Medieval tech in the <15 turns that have elapsed since then. Moreover, only one civ is scientific over there, so they should only have ONE Medieval tech between them. Although by the time we reach them, if they have anything put into science they may just about have reached another tech.
However it is quite likely they already have Feudalism, as v1.21f was the version where scientific civs always got the same tech from the next Era, IIRC, and we upgraded after they made the Medieval Era.
So in brief there are few trading opportunities for us through first contact unless someone wants Republic and doesn't already have it. Unless someone can come up with some other benefits of meeting them first over CFC...?
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Dominae
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Togas proposes 300 Gold and now we're down to 240 because we're afraid CFC will not sign?!
I fully understand the desire to get CFC on our side here. But let's face it: we want their Gold more than anything else.
I say make a deal for Republic with CFC so that GWT cannot finesse us, with promises of a deal for Engineering.
I'm quite frankly amazed at how we're playing into CFC's hands here, when they're the ones about to be destroyed. Not to open any old wounds, but this situation sounds a lot like Lux making promises/boasts all over the map just before their decisive demise.
Dominae
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:27
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CFC not only isn't a money pot; they're a weaker nation, losing cities, losing a war, stuck in Despotism, and desperate to save their asses more than anything else. What really struck me during the conversation with OctavianX (something I think I messed up on by acting too much like we were doing them a favor) was pointing out that we're giving them everything we have (all our techs and contacts) with this deal and only asking for 300g. He replied very snidely about how we have more LAND than they do, which demonstrates how they view us ... jealously. He mentioned how he wants an equal split of GCA after the war is over, which will likely mean they want half regardless of what we do ... and they will rationalize it by saying that they fought GCA alone for a long long time, killed most of GCA's army and we came in and easily wiped the floor with the leftovers.
Back on point: CFC isn't viewing us as a team that is "helping" them, they see us as a larger team that is "using" them. They envy our numerous cities, our peaceful aquisitions, our tech lead, our great industry, our peaceful growth, and our power. They clearly aren't seeking to keep the statis quo with us, they will want to get the most benefit of any bargain, mostly because they feel a need to get their power back.
And we have to treat them very carefully. We can continue to be cold, methodical negotiators. We can also be shrewd manipulators and try to outdo each other. Or we can give them the cold shoulder when they don't go along with our "fair" and "reasonable" terms.
OR we can change our attitude and start giving them help and information, while asking for nothing in return. Giving them technology for nothing is a BIT too much, but maybe we should agree to future trades ... "we give you this now, you give us X tech when you get it."
I think the best thing we can do is to start treating them like a friend and a partner. Give them information on our military readiness and our countdown to attack, and keep them in the loop on what's going on. We need to legitimately jointly plan this war with them, include them, and give them hope that we are actually carrying through. We need to embrace them, bring them in, and encourage a change of attitude from them about us.
CFC is not our friend and they never have been. We are just two teams with common goals and interests. CFC has yet to give up this game, they are still in it to win and they probably see us only as a short-term ally. We need to change that attitude by our actions and treatment of them.
--Togas
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Togas proposes 300 Gold and now we're down to 240 because we're afraid CFC will not sign?!
I fully understand the desire to get CFC on our side here. But let's face it: we want their Gold more than anything else.
I say make a deal for Republic with CFC so that GWT cannot finesse us, with promises of a deal for Engineering.
I'm quite frankly amazed at how we're playing into CFC's hands here, when they're the ones about to be destroyed. Not to open any old wounds, but this situation sounds a lot like Lux making promises/boasts all over the map just before their decisive demise.
Dominae |
We are playing the hand we have been dealt, and that is...
We are crawling and scratching our way out of a jungle. The fact we've made it this far in this shape relative to the rest of the world is somewhat of a surprise to me.
We are definitely not going to ever, in a million years, win this game by ourselves.
We need at least one friend. CFC is ideal for it. We are cooperating with them, to the limits of their abilities. By cooperating now we may show them that we can cooperate later.
Or, do you and F-P have a plan for dealing with a continent with 2 civs larger than us, each of whose culture dwarfs us, and to do that by ourselves?
IMO, cooperation for a very long time with CFC is our best hope to come out on top in this game. We need for them to see that as well.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:27
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Ok, another little analogy to makes things a bit more clear on why we went for 240g:
Let's say you are the only person on the block selling a new toy. However, there is only one other person who can buy it, and he has 1/3 the money on hand that it cost you to buy it. But you really, REALLY need the cash. Now, you know he can probably shell out a little more but then again he has some other things he'd rather spend it on. You can:
1) Act like a jerk and don't sell it at all. Thus, you get $0 but your pride is intact.
2) Insist and insist on a higher price. Since the other guy won't give in, you eventually have to settle for 1) or,
3) Sell it at the max the other guy is willing to buy it from. Sure, that might be only 1/3 of what it cost you but some money is some money.
To add more spice into this, you know another kid with the same toy who has a 50% chance of moving to the block and selling that very same toy and just might outbid you.
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25-08-2003 02:36
from me.
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