30-08-2003 18:19									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Think of it. A thousand different cheeses (Parmasian, Chedder, feta), most of the wines (Champagne, Chianti), most of the beer styles (Pilsner, Dortmunder) and many ways of preparing meat are all named after place names. They are trying to take these phrases and descriptions out of the common language and make them mean only products they make claiming this will help avoid consumer confusion.

Not all the claims are equal (which mean not all are equally invalid) The claims for some Cheese are far-fetched, but not all, same for the cured meats. In the wine area, you can always name wines after the grape types, which matters most I think: restrciting place names in that respect is not an issue. As for Pilsner, well, the folk in Pilsner already made sure everyone knows they are the "true" ones with the Urquell name.

quote: The exact opposite is true though; it will create more consumer confusion and will prevent consumers from making comparasions between like products. This legislation is custom designed to confuse consumers and to line the pockets of a few European producers.

Again, it is a claim by claim issue: not all the claims tyring to be made are valid: not all of them are invalid either.

	30-08-2003 18:38									#182
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I agree with you Gepap. Some are valid and others are not. It should be decided on a case by case basis.

	30-08-2003 21:41									#183
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk We have consumer-protection (aka "truth in advertising") laws that prevent those kinds of shenanigans. All imported food products here must be clear on nation of origin. Trying to mislead in that way here tends to make for quick lawyer-bait.

I know that in France, there is always a more or less discreet label "Made in ...". I think that the exact place of fabrication must figure on packages in Germany, and this may be the European law (Hersh will know better than me). But like the rest, it is in small font on the other side of the package. Only picky people (like what I am with Feta) will bother reading as much to know that about their product.

quote: As an aside, when I shop for cheddar cheese, the manufacturers always note that it's a Vermont cheddar or a New York cheddar, if it comes from either of those states. It's not a requirement -- it's a marketing point.

Well, I doubt any Danish fetamaker will ever advertise on its nationality, except maybe in Denmark Same for Chilean Champagne, or other similar things. Besides, most Feta-packagings here, despite not mentioning "Origin : Greece" blatantly, display a Greek-evoking landscape, and sometimes even a Greek flag. Despite not being an outright lie (there is no explicit mentions it has been made in Greece), it sure is misleading.

But then again, I talk about feta and I don't even think Feta should be protected about its location. Only about the recipe and the contents (Sorry, but Feta is the only thing where I am really picky... I am a tad picky with wine, but I only drink seriously with my father, who makes the selection)

	30-08-2003 21:43									#184
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Only when the location in which it is produced has an effect on the final product (like a special balance of nutrients in the soil, certain things in the air, temperatures and amount of light) should the name of the product be restricted by the place in which it was produced.

	30-08-2003 21:48									#185
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Considering I already eat tradmarked foods (McDonald's, Wendy's, Jack-in-the-Box, Sprite, Big Kahuna Burger), I just don't care.

	30-08-2003 21:59									#186
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Only when the location in which it is produced has an effect on the final product (like a special balance of nutrients in the soil, certain things in the air, temperatures and amount of light) should the name of the product be restricted by the place in which it was produced.

Yep. This is why GePap's idea of a case to case basis is good.

However, there is a technical problem with restricting names according to the right recipe (what I advocate for Feta, and what I'd advocate for products like Mayonnaise and other traditional foods). This is: who gets the right to define what is the "right" recipe ? What makes it legitimate to tell that real feta is made of goat milk, and that cow-milk feta is a fake ? This sounds obvious (Feta is not a millenial Danish tradition ), but who has the right to tell what the real recipe should be ? Answering this answer would bring many headaches.

	30-08-2003 22:06									#187
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It can be legislated.

For example, in the US, to call your product "beer", it must fall within certain specifications.

	30-08-2003 22:16									#188
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I haven't yet seen this charge addressed in this thread:

quote: "This is not about protectionism. It is about fairness,'' EU Agriculture Commissioner Franz Fischler said in a statement. "It is simply not acceptable that the EU cannot sell its genuine Italian Parma ham in Canada because the trademark 'Parma ham' is reserved for a ham produced in Canada.''

How can a Canadian producer by holding a local trademark for his fake hinder the sales of the genuine product?

	30-08-2003 22:16									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's to late. Anyone who doesn't defend a copy right loses that copy right when a phrase enters into the common language. This is a well established legal principle and it is the reason companies like Xerox sue publications which call photocopies 'Xeroxes". They don't want to loss the rights to their mark due to lack of defending the mark.

And as I said before, GIs are not trademarks or copyrights. I suggest you read the TRIPS.

"None, and I do mean none, of the frivalous cases the EU is bringing up now have been legally defended ever before recently. During the centuries they were not defended they entered the language and now it is like trying to copy right the word "door" or "car"."

Legally "defended" where?
Looks like the WTO will have to rule on this.

	30-08-2003 22:16									#190
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker For example, in the US, to call your product "beer", it must fall within certain specifications.

Yep, that's the same in Germany. But for an international regulation (that's what the thread is about), there is no legal reason for some EU organism to describe the "real" recipe the rest of the world should abide to. Even if the rest of the world would agree that recipe X should be describe by someone in the EU (I don't think it is going to happen), the particular someone is less than clear...

	30-08-2003 22:18									#191
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Oh.

	30-08-2003 22:19									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I know that in France, there is always a more or less discreet label "Made in ...". I think that the exact place of fabrication must figure on packages in Germany, and this may be the European law (Hersh will know better than me).

It usually has to (Art 3 para 8 Directive 2000/13/EC), yes.

	30-08-2003 22:20									#193
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In the US it has to, IIRC.

	30-08-2003 22:50									#194
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Confusing foodstuff situation of the day:

Today, I was rummaging thrugh my parents' freezer to take out a piece of Hungarian sausage, thinking whether I should pick a Gyulai or a Csabai (two different types of Paprika-flavoured Salami, the latter rather spicier than the former) So I rummaged through the carrier bag they're in and...

I picked out a Csabai, manufactured by the Gyulai company.

(Csaba and Gyula are geographical locations, but they're not protected. Go figure. )

	30-08-2003 22:57									#195
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do you really care that badly about this, Buck?

	30-08-2003 23:20									#196
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more protectionism.

	31-08-2003 05:34									#197
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This thread has grown loooonnngg!

Spiffor, real feta is made of sheep's milk, not goat's milk as far as I know. At least on Cyprus where I went more then any other Greek location. France is already full of disgusting goat cheese, so why would you even need to import it? It taste nothing like feta anyway.

By the way, feta is similar to the Swedish slang for female genitals. You figure the rest of the story out - Let's eat some feta tonight!

And to go back somewhat earlier: He said WIENER, huhu, huhu huhuhu!

	31-08-2003 05:54									#198
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There is no end to this stupidity. Just think In addition to the items I meantioned before Bologna, Vienna Sausages, London broil, Irish roast, Danish Ham... Anything with a place name could be copy righted. It doesn't have to stop with European names either . I can think of many food stuffs from the Middle East, India, and East Asia which have place names in their name.

I'll say it again these EU protectionists are trying to confuse consumers and attempting to prevent consumers from comparision shopping between like items. Their sole purpose is to drive up prices and harm consumers.

Last edited by Oerdin on 31-08-2003 at 06:53

	31-08-2003 06:52									#199
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Well, the article does mention several non-EU states that whish to back this legislation.

Again, some of these claims are valid. Most of thoise you just mentioned Oerdin aren't really valid: who makes their living making pure Vienna Sausages? (I didn;t really even see them in vienna), or who is a top maker of London broil? (the question makes no sense). So it is not ANY place name.

	31-08-2003 06:57									#200
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First of all, the claim that terms such as Feta and Parma have entered into common use in the English language to describe a style is simply incorrect. In fact, a quick consultation with Webster's dictionary revealed that Feta is:

quote: a white moderately hard and crumbly Greek cheese made from sheep's or goat's milk and cured in brine

As for the principle let me give a down to earth example. Lets say, the forum crowd knows that Oerdin's posts are well-written and informative. "Oerdin's post" might even become a common phrase to describe such posts coming from anybody. However, if I publish a book, called "Oerdin's quotes from Apolyton" it would have to contain only posts by Oerdin himself, in order to accuratelly tell the buyer what he is buying. Of course, in a title like "Making posts like Oerdin" Oerdin would not be a protected trademark, opening the door wide open to products such as "Chilean Champagne", "Kentucky Feta Cheese", while simply "Champagne", or simply "Feta" would be confined to France and Greece, respectively.

	31-08-2003 06:59									#201
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The "greek" can mean that the style originated in Greece.

You have southern fried chicken. The definition could be something like "blah blah southern chicken blah blah". That doesn't mean it was made in the south.

	31-08-2003 07:05									#202
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Southern is general geographic term that is applicable only in specific conditions (like US, where people have an idea that southern fried chicken is styled after American south. The name would not make much sense in India, Russia or Brazil, therefore it obviously means a style. There is no particular place called "South", it is at best an ill defined regional characteristic (Maryland ?, Florida ?, Missouri ?, Alabama ?). Parma on the other hand is a particular place, so is Greece, and so is Champagne.

	31-08-2003 07:15									#203
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I hoep this doesn't th affect the price of Rocky mountain oysters

	31-08-2003 09:04									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There is no end to this stupidity. Just think In addition to the items I meantioned before Bologna, Vienna Sausages, London broil, Irish roast, Danish Ham... Anything with a place name could be copy righted.

What's a 'London broil'? It ain't British that's for sure. Broil is a term used in American English, but not British English.There is a difference between Irish Stew and say a local Irish cheese, such as:

http://www.durruscheese.com/farmhou...ese_history.htm

or Cashel Blue.

As there is a difference between a bakewell tart and a Bakewell Tart- buy a mass produced one, then eat the genuine article. Although the bakewell and cheddar battles have been lost, alas....

Anyways, the Americans sure are touchy about their liquor:

'Time to talk turkey. United States company Austin Nichols has lodged new objections to a Queensland winery’s Bush Turkey port trademark application. Nichols cited a statutory declaration from an Australian distributor who claimed customers could mistake the port for Austin’s Wild Turkey bourbon.'

http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/ippro...m#_Hlk536593029

http://www.mttamborinewinery.com.au/page11.html

The bush turkey is a native bird of North Australia. The Queensland manufacturers have politely told the Americans where to put their claim (something to do with a koala's arse, I expect...)

I have eaten very well in America- especially Washington State and California. Cheers to Ivar's in Seattle and the Stinking Rose in San Francisco. And yes, Oerdin, I think Californian producers reserve their better wines for local or American consumption- we were fortunate to get some very good bottles from a Californian vintners. We asked if they were a local product, and she said they didn't sell them out of state,
so either there or the vineyard were the only places to buy.

Here's to sourdough bread and cioppino, and feta, khoubz and baba ghanoush.

And GePap- canned dolmas! You heathen!!!!

	31-08-2003 09:57									#205
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Going back to the exercise with Feta I presented earlier, what's the impact on the individual consumer who knows what proper Feta is, such as Spiffor?

	31-08-2003 10:14									#206
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As I see it, the impact will be mostly on consumers that don't have prior knowledge about how a product is made, but are going on the basis of reputation. In your example with Feta, the demand for "Feta" produced in Greece will rise, supply is relatively limited, therefore the price of authentic Feta will rise sharply.
IMHO that is exactly what the EU is trying to accomplish. Those producers that made a name for a product from a certain region, and persevered to stay in that region over centuries will be rewarded.

	31-08-2003 11:25									#207
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Let's see if it violates international copyright laws. If so, you can't do it. I don't see how using the traditional name for a product violates copyright laws, though.

Contrary to "intellectual property" propaganda, trademarks (and patents) have very little in common with copyrights. This discussion is about trademarks and not copyrights.

	31-08-2003 12:35									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There is no end to this stupidity. Just think In addition to the items I meantioned before Bologna, Vienna Sausages, London broil, Irish roast, Danish Ham... Anything with a place name could be copy righted.

For the 3rd time, it's not a copyright, it's a geographical indication.

Now let's clarify what regulation 2081/92 actually says.

Art 2 para 2 lit a)

quote: (a) designation of origin: means the name of a region, a specific place or, in exceptional cases, a country, used to describe an agricultural product or a foodstuff: - originating in that region, specific place or country, and - the quality or characteristics of which are essentially or exclusively due to a particular geographical environment with its inherent natural and human factors, and the production, processing and preparation of which take place in the defined geographical area;

Art 3 para 1

quote: 1. Names that have become generic may not be registered. For the purposes of this Regulation, a 'name that has become generic` means the name of an agricultural product or a foodstuff which, although it relates to the place or the region where this product or foodstuff was originally produced or marketed, has become the common name of an agricultural product or a foodstuff. ...

So "Wiener" has nothing to do with geographic environment, and it's a generic name. Spaghetti Bolognese, the same. Danish ham, no idea. Feta, disputable.

"I'll say it again these EU protectionists are trying to confuse consumers and attempting to prevent consumers from comparision shopping between like items. Their sole purpose is to drive up prices and harm consumers. "

So you are confused when there is no longer danish Feta? A little episode we had here was about Gorgonzola (GI or trademark): An austrian producer made Österzola, they had to change it to Österkron. Didn't hurt them because the product is good.

As for driving up prices: Yes, if demand concentrates on the GI product. That's the point of offering that opportunity to regional producers.

	13-09-2003 09:34									#209
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It may drive up prices; it may also drive up production in the region in question, possibly sacrificing quality in the process.

	13-09-2003 12:17									#210
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Please, this is easily resolved in America. We'll just call champagne Freedom Wine. Parma ham will become Freedom ham. Feta=Freedom Cheese. Problem solved.