30-08-2003 17:23									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Would you be happy if lamb was packaged as beef? That wouldn't break any copyright laws, but would be very misleading, even if it did say somewhere on the package in small print '100% lamb'. Or should we let the market decide?

That's apples and oranges.

...

It's exactly apples and oranges.

	30-08-2003 17:24									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Are you afraid there really isn't that much of a difference?

I am afraid the big merchandising machines win the supermarket battle, and let most consumers in ignorance. When you don't know about the superior product (goat-milk Feta), it is difficult togo buy it. When you see there are two "Fetas" side by side, and one is 20% more expansive than the other, you take the other. How can you know you have just lost an opportunity of tasting goat-milk feta after that ? You just bought two "interchangeable" products.

TMM:
Well, the Mayonnaise I eat in Germany is pure crap, but I agree with you it is not a localization thing. You can make good mayonnaise that tastes like the Dijon one anywhere in the world, if you follow the same recipe with same ingredients. (with extremely little variation coming from where you had the Colza grow... Big deal )

	30-08-2003 17:25									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Would you be happy if lamb was packaged as beef? That wouldn't break any copyright laws, but would be very misleading, even if it did say somewhere on the package in small print '100% lamb'.

This is a false delema. It isn't even close to being analogous to what we are talking about. We are talking about common name food products which are made under almost identical conditions. The question is can one maker or group of makers claim exclusive rights to phrases which are in common usage?

The anwser is no because these phrases are no a part of the common lexicon. They cannot be copy righted; which is essentially what you are trying to do when you claim exclusive rights to the name.

	30-08-2003 17:26									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I say let the market decide which cheese is better. Are you afraid there really isn't that much of a difference?

We're not afraid of competition, but why don't you call your products by names of your own regions? Aren't you proud of them? For what all this fraud? If you want to show which recipes you use, add "style" and remain honest. Parma ham from Canada or the US is just like a Rolex from Taiwan.

quote: That's true. German wines aren't my cup of tea either.

I'm from Germany and don't drink them either. Frankly, I don't drink much wine at all. Most of us are beer drinkers anyway. Probably we don't have enough sun for a good wine. This may change in the next decades, this summer was just a start.

	30-08-2003 17:27									#155
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I honestly can't tell for the Port, since I've never tasted the original. Everytime I drank Port, it was a supermarket one, from a brand I enjoy much. I have no idea if the localization is that important for this one.
But I think that Ports which aren't originated in Porto should have a different, generic name. Like "fortified wine" or something. Or simply the brand name, and let the brand make a name for itself. Martini managed it.

	30-08-2003 17:27									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We don't drink Bourbon. If at all, we drink Scotch. Needless to say where it comes from.

Hmmm...I thought I was addressing Americans...why, indeed I was!

I wasn't asking what they drank, either -- I was asking if they'd mind if a competing Bourbon came out of Europe.

You really should pay closer attention to what you're reading.

	30-08-2003 17:28									#157
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I can get some pretty decent Californians here in the UK Rogan. Though the Australian stuff is my wine of choice.

I do see a big difference between the *place* the food comes from and the *style* it's made in. Parma Ham is universally delicious and I know buying Parma Ham means I'm buying quality. Parma-style Ham can be okay but could also be a bit of salty raw pig. I'd rather buy a New York Pizza and know what I'm getting than a New York-style Pizza that's made somewhere in Wales. Its about being able to buy something from the region where the traditions and skills have been developed for generations, where the local factors all come together to produce this great product. I'm sure Parma-style ham made in Canada can be excellent but Canada is not Parma.

Parma ham with a salad of young leaves, olive oil and balsamic vineger dressing (throw in a bit of crushed garlic for fun) and piece of crusty bread studded with green olives. Enjoy with a cold glass of your favourite white wine. Yum....

	30-08-2003 17:31									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am afraid the big merchandising machines win the supermarket battle, and let most consumers in ignorance. When you don't know about the superior product (goat-milk Feta), it is difficult togo buy it. When you see there are two "Fetas" side by side, and one is 20% more expansive than the other, you take the other. How can you know you have just lost an opportunity of tasting goat-milk feta after that ? You just bought two "interchangeable" products.

I agree the products should be labeled with their location of origin and their ingredients clearly listed. That will help consumers make an informed choice. They will be able to look on the label and tell if one is made from goat of cow's milk.

You're right it is difficult for small makers to compete with larger ones but educating consumers as to supposed advantages of one method over another is part of that competetion. The big problem they're having is the market hasn't really found that much difference between the two products and now the small makers are running to the government to kill their competetors since they;ve failed to do so in fair competetion.

	30-08-2003 17:34									#159
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You want to hear something funny?

When I go shopping for the kinds of foods we're discussing here, I always strive to get the "original".

I just don't think people should be forced to, is all. If they can't be bothered to find the "real thing", they don't deserve to.

	30-08-2003 17:37									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin This is a false delema. It isn't even close to being analogous to what we are talking about. We are talking about common name food products which are made under almost identical conditions. The question is can one maker or group of makers claim exclusive rights to phrases which are in common usage? The anwser is no because these phrases are no a part of the common lexicon. They cannot be copy righted; which is essentially what you are trying to do when you claim exclusive rights to the name.

Its exactly the same thing, just more extreme. They are both meat products - both raised by eating grass - I am sure McDonalds can't tell the difference.

The only reason you are happy with labeling things the same is when YOU can't tell the difference. But to those with tast, proper Feta (or whatever) tastes very different to the faked version. All we want is clear labelling which distinguishes the two.

Why are you whining so much about us wanting clear labelling?

	30-08-2003 17:39									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We're not afraid of competition, but why don't you call your products by names of your own regions? Aren't you proud of them? For what all this fraud? If you want to show which recipes you use, add "style" and remain honest. Parma ham from Canada or the US is just like a Rolex from Taiwan.

Again. I don't believe this is correct and he is why. Rolex watches are a brand of watch which the maker has exclusive rights to due to the name Rolex being a registared trade mark which the owner has continously defended since it's inception. Trying to copy right a word like "feta" is like trying to copy right the word "watch"; no matter how much you wish it were so it is not legal. It is incorrect to take a common word and to try to claim exclusive rights for that word.

	30-08-2003 17:42									#162
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While I can sypathize with the European position, I don;t think it is really viable in terms of free trade laws. As TMM illustrates, those that want the real thing from the real place (at least in the Americas) go looking for it by brand name: johnny come-lately who buys his $2.50 per/lb Parma isn;t looking for top-notch, true Parma ham (hell, do we really expect this guy to know Parma is a place? Or where it might be in the world?).

BUt then I live in NYC where I get the best from everwhere (like cheap, canned dolma from Turkey, or Greek Feta in the supermarket, or this or that...), so this is not that serious a problem for me

	30-08-2003 17:44									#163
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quote: Why are you whining so much about us wanting clear labelling?

You mean Danish Feta isn't being labeled as Danish?

	30-08-2003 17:48									#164
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Here's something for the purists to consider...

Imagine that this goes through, and only Greek Feta is able to bear the name.

What happens when all the proles who previously couldn't tell Danish and Greek Feta apart read "Feta" on their shopping lists?

	30-08-2003 17:51									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Its exactly the same thing, just more extreme. They are both meat products - both raised by eating grass - I am sure McDonalds can't tell the difference. The only reason you are happy with labeling things the same is when YOU can't tell the difference. But to those with tast, proper Feta (or whatever) tastes very different to the faked version. All we want is clear labelling which distinguishes the two. Why are you whining so much about us wanting clear labelling?

[sarcastic remark]
Yes, you are right Josh. I am a philistine, a luddite, and I am totally incappable of being half as decerning as such a quick witted boy as yourself.
[/sarcastic remark]

The problem isn't labeling. The problem is in the English language words like "feta" have been used to describe a dry salty cheese for a long, long time. Now, we have the Greek government and the EU coming in and claim exclusive rights to this word and claiming that only salty cheese made and Greece can be called feta.

It's to late. Anyone who doesn't defend a copy right loses that copy right when a phrase enters into the common language. This is a well established legal principle and it is the reason companies like Xerox sue publications which call photocopies 'Xeroxes". They don't want to loss the rights to their mark due to lack of defending the mark.

None, and I do mean none, of the frivalous cases the EU is bringing up now have been legally defended ever before recently. During the centuries they were not defended they entered the language and now it is like trying to copy right the word "door" or "car".

	30-08-2003 17:53									#166
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Here's something for the purists to consider... Imagine that this goes through, and only Greek Feta is able to bear the name. What happens when all the proles who previously couldn't tell Danish and Greek Feta apart read "Feta" on their shopping lists?

They run out of the supermarket crying? Their heads explode?

That wouldn;t be much of an issue: if they couldn;t teel the difference before, they will just buy the Feta there is and be happy.

	30-08-2003 17:55									#167
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Exactly.

Given that there is a finite capacity for supplying real Greek Feta, what happens then?

	30-08-2003 17:57									#168
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Exactly. Given that there is a finite capacity for supplying real Greek Feta, what happens then?

That's been the motivating factor for the EU in all of these cases.

	30-08-2003 17:59									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin None, and I do mean none, of the frivalous cases the EU is bringing up now have been legally defended ever before recently. During the centuries they were not defended they entered the language and now it is like trying to copy right the word "door" or "car".

You are taking it a bit far: Parma is NOT a common word: when is the last time you used "Parma" in any discussion prior to this thread? Place name nouns are not the same as common nouns describing objects: the number of Parma's is limited, and it is false advertising for exampel to go to cali and sell "Once in a lifetime trips to Paris!!" and fail to mention you meant Paris, Texas, not Paris, France. In this way, it is also different form using the example of Xeroxm which begun as a company name, which then got warped.

	30-08-2003 18:00									#170
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Exactly. Given that there is a finite capacity for supplying real Greek Feta, what happens then?

$$$$$$$$$$$

got to get me into the feta business.

	30-08-2003 18:01									#171
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Parmasean Cheese.

	30-08-2003 18:02									#172
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You are showing exceptional perception, my students.

	30-08-2003 18:04									#173
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Parmasean Cheese.

Petty nitpicking (and how many people know this is the adjective for something from Parma?Honeslty, I never made the connection until this thread, and I am a rather heavy user of said cheese).

	30-08-2003 18:06									#174
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I believe that Parmasean cheese is targeted along with the ham.

	30-08-2003 18:08									#175
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk You mean Danish Feta isn't being labeled as Danish?

No. Feta isn't labeled by its place of origin. Andone has to be cautious not to be fooled into believing the package of a cow-milk feta with goat-milk (packages always show shepherds and goats, you have to read the small-font content to see if there is actually goat milk or not)

	30-08-2003 18:10									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Again. I don't believe this is correct and he is why. Rolex watches are a brand of watch which the maker has exclusive rights to due to the name Rolex being a registared trade mark which the owner has continously defended since it's inception. Trying to copy right a word like "feta" is like trying to copy right the word "watch"; no matter how much you wish it were so it is not legal. It is incorrect to take a common word and to try to claim exclusive rights for that word.

I grant you this one, the feta argument is really stupid. I said so before in this thread. But the others, like Champagne, Parma ham and alike bear region names and remain valid.

	30-08-2003 18:13									#177
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Gepap: I was going to say Parmasian cheese too. In any event the EU is now seeking to squat on all sorts of different common words which are also place names.

Think of it. A thousand different cheeses (Parmasian, Chedder, feta), most of the wines (Champagne, Chianti), most of the beer styles (Pilsner, Dortmunder) and many ways of preparing meat are all named after place names. They are trying to take these phrases and descriptions out of the common language and make them mean only products they make claiming this will help avoid consumer confusion.

The exact opposite is true though; it will create more consumer confusion and will prevent consumers from making comparasions between like products. This legislation is custom designed to confuse consumers and to line the pockets of a few European producers.

	30-08-2003 18:15									#178
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I believe that Parmasean cheese is targeted along with the ham.

Hmmm..why sin;t it parma cheese?

I don;t think I have ever bought Parmesan cheese from Parma Italy, nor have I ever seen it in my supermarket, or even in fancy food shops in this city. I might have to go to the Cheese Store to find some.

	30-08-2003 18:18									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor No. Feta isn't labeled by its place of origin.

Then they should be labeled so as to prevent confusion.

	30-08-2003 18:19									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor No. Feta isn't labeled by its place of origin. Andone has to be cautious not to be fooled into believing the package of a cow-milk feta with goat-milk (packages always show shepherds and goats, you have to read the small-font content to see if there is actually goat milk or not)

We have consumer-protection (aka "truth in advertising") laws that prevent those kinds of shenanigans. All imported food products here must be clear on nation of origin. Trying to mislead in that way here tends to make for quick lawyer-bait.

As an aside, when I shop for cheddar cheese, the manufacturers always note that it's a Vermont cheddar or a New York cheddar, if it comes from either of those states. It's not a requirement -- it's a marketing point.