30-08-2003 08:17									#1
	Turn 112, 330BC Support Apolyton

To be edited only by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Republic
- Researching Engineering (30) 1 scientist.
- 222 gold. +37 gpt
- Slider at 9/0/1 tax/sci/lux


Urgent questions & tasks

Final plans for PoA to plunge into the ocean West of Equilibrium. Warrior WB moving to join her.

Diplomacy between CFC and GCA.

Determining turn that we attack.

Unit Movement & Actions:

All units (excepting upgrading Swordsmen) in Army Group A/B (AGA/B) to remain (fortified) on the road tile 8 of Cuido where they can maintain the maximum mobility to deal with a GCA threat.

AGA/B contains: 3 vet Horseman, 6 vet MIs, 5 vet Swordsmen (upgrading), 4 vet NMs, 1 elite Warrior (19 units)

All Swordsmen left in the main city core upgrade in Mingapulco:

M07 VII. Scourge
M08 VIII. Steelglove
M09 IX. Hawkeye
M10 X. Grog
M11 XI. Slash

G01 I. PoA moves 7-8-8.
G02 II. Expedition [Flash, Jagjef] moves 6-6-3 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with the Swordsmen.

M01 I. Vlad joins AGA/B.
M02 II. PanzerInfantry moves 2-1.
M03 III. Arnelos moves 2-1.
M04 IV. E_T moves 2-1.
M05 V. Theseus moves 2-1.
M06 VI. 'Incensity' moves towards AGA/B.

H03 III. VonHorseman moves to the tile with the Worker.

S05 V. Hack moves 3; Heading back towards AGA/B.

N01 I. MerZenary attacks the barb or moves 8 if it is not visible.
N04 IV. Togas moves 4 towards the PoA launching point.
N08 VIII. Numidian Master joins AGA/B.
N09 IX. 'Apolyton' moves towards AGA/B

C01 I. 'Catapult' moves 2-1 into the AGA/B gathering point.

W02 II. BigFree moves 2-7 and fortifies (scouting cycle).
W04 IV. BFW moves 8-8-8 towards gold hill north of BFC.
W07 VII. WhiteBandit moves 4 towards the PoA launching point.
W08 VIII. Not_Panag moves 4-4 towards Equilibrium.
W12 XII. WWNN moves 6.

All other units to remain as they are.

Economy:
To be added by MoI

WF:
To be added by MoI

Workers:
Referance: Map of tiles still needing Improvements
To be added by MoI


Diplomacy:
GCA: NAP in effect (to Turn 130).
CFC: NAP expired. New NAP proposed by CFC thru turn 117


Comment, please, many "plans" are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.

---
Note: keypad directions used for all except WF orders.

Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results

Last edited by Trip on 31-08-2003 at 23:17

	30-08-2003 09:52									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Please post how many turns remaining until we attack.

--Togas

	30-08-2003 12:50									#3
	Rough plan to keep Banana growing while getting Settlers from other places Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In order to keep from having to build Settlers from the only city which we can get working effectively above size 6 I've come up with this plan which I've already run by BF and E_T:

We will have to shift Ming to 0 food production from now on (the current state that Apolyton is in). Instead of working the mined-shielded grass tiles at WF3 and WF10, it will work 2 hills (one of which Apolyton is working now). This will allow it to attain 10 SPT at size 5.

Apolyton will be shifted to growth mode, and it will be the city which we will get Settlers from. In order to do this, we will need to get a respectable FPT output from it. To do this we shift WF off of one of the hills, irrigate one of the grass tiles near it (BF suggested BFC 3, or Apolyton WF19) and have Apolyton assume 3 of the shielded grass tiles in the area. This will allow it a constant output of 10 SPT at both size 5 and size 6 (obviously it will be above 10 SPT at size 6, but we can work out an alternate WF setup for those circumstances). Note that this specialized WF arrangement only applies for size 5 when we're NOT working the game. If we are working the game then we can maintain a 3 FPT surplus by working the game and 2 shielded tiles.

Apolyton will maintain a 2+ food per turn surplus under these circumstances. The turn it will grow to size 7 (which it can't really, since we have no Aquaduct) we will finish a Settler. Thus, the Settler will be built, dropping the city population down to 4, and then the growth will boost it back up to size 5 where we can again attain 10 SPT using the WF setup which I mentioned earlier.

Now then, as for Bananatopia. Currently Bananatopia is at size 7 and will need 8 turns of a 4 food surplus to get to size 8 (our pre-GA maximum). However, as long as it's growing and we strip no population from it the plan is still in effect. Using the WF placement scheme as seen in image 3 (look below) Banana can get 10 SPT while Apolyton can get 10 SPT also. However, once Apolyton drops to size 5 for the first time we'll have to switch between a mined grass tile and the hill in the radius every so often (which will be mined) since Apolyton will need more shielded grass tiles. This will slow growth, but Banana will be capped at 9 SPT before size 8 due to Apolyton's tile usage. Thus to get a 30 shield unit Bananatopia will follow a scheme of 9-9-12 to get the correct shield count.

All of this will require a bit of planning in order for everything to fit exactly into place, like a puzzle. However, the only things we will have to concern ourselves with is the timing between growth and completion of a Settler in Apolyton and the number of turns we need to have Banana work a mined hill in order to reach a desired shield amount.

In order for all this to take effect and to get the Settler soon we will need to shift the WF in Ming from both shielded grass in the Apolyton radius over to the hill that Apolyton is working now and another flat non-shielded tile. Apolyton will then work the game for the next 3 turns, in addition to working one hill and two shielded grass for 11 SPT for the next two turns. On the third turn it will switch from the hill to a flat tile to get 4 food that turn, and grow in 3 turns to coincide with the completion of a Settler in as many turns (11 + 11 + 9). This tile configuration allows Mingapulco and Bananatopia to maintain 10 SPT without interruption, and gets us 10 SPT from Apolyton in addition to 3 turn growth (exactly what we need for the Settler). We will then be at size 5 again and can fudge with the shielded grass as noted above to get 10 SPT from size 5 Apolyton.

This cycle can then be repeated in the future as necessary to maintain a proper SPT amount in Apolyton while also allowing growth in Banana and Settlers in an effectively endless stream.

Here are a couple images to help illustrate what I'm talking about. On these images assume all tiles which DON'T have anything but roads on them actually have mines on them. This goes for both flat land and hills. The mines were removed from the map to allow the shielded grassland to show in order to show exactly what tiles are being worked.. The first two images show Apolyton at size 5 while the 3rd one shows a special case for Apolyton getting 10 SPT at size 6.

Image 1

Simply a WF system which we can use once Apolyton is at size 5.



This is a tile setup in which Apolyton does NOT use the game, but Banana is. Apolyton gets 10 SPT, but Banana only gets 9 (meaning at some point we'll have to shift to the hill at Banana 3-3 for extra shields - after it has been mined). Apolyton has a +2 food surplus here and Banana has a +4 (until it works the hill).

Image 2

Another WF system which we can use once Apolyton is at size 5.



In this setup Apolyton IS working the game. Under these circumstances all three cities make a constant 10 SPT. Apolyton has a +3 food surplus and Bananatopia has a +2 surplus.

Image 3

The "third turn" for Apolyton size 6 which we will need to use soon.



In the final image Apolyton has a +4 food surplus and 10 SPT. Banana is once again at 10 SPT and a +2 food surplus. Note that Apolyton is size 6 in this image, unlike the last two images.

Note: the "first and second turns" are identical to the "third turn" aside from the fact that Apolyton is working an IRRIGATED grass instead of a mined one (this will need to be tended to in the next turn most likely). When the tile is mined instead Apolyton will make +3 food and +11 SPT. This will change once the tile in question is irrigated. 3-3-4 will fill the food box and begin the Settler-churning cycle.

Last edited by Trip on 30-08-2003 at 14:31

	30-08-2003 15:03									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I like this plan.

It allows Banana to grow to a monster city.

In a GA, Banana at size 8 will produce 20+ SPT clear. That alone is enough reason to let it grow to me.

Plus we can stick with the plan to have Lux build a Granery next.

But....we do need a settler right now, or in the next 2-3 turns at least. So we either rush it in Lux or in HoD in the next 2 turns. We will have plenty of gold for all of our upgrades and for the needed investigations of GCA cities with more than a 100 gold to spare.

	30-08-2003 15:05									#5
	Re: Rough plan to keep Banana growing while getting Settlers from other places Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trip The turn it will grow to size 7 (which it can't really, since we have no Aquaduct) we will finish a Settler. Thus, the Settler will be built, dropping the city population down to 4, and then the growth will boost it back up to size 5 where we can again attain 10 SPT using the WF setup which I mentioned earlier.

Erh, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't growth come before production? In that case, you need one turn between going to virtual size 7 and building the settler. Otherwise, you would grow to size 7, can't, build the settler the same turn (size 4), and only next turn go to size 5... with loss of food.

I'm not sure about this, but I thought it was like that. The same scheme could probably work, because the citizens which are formed immediately produce shields. You would never be with the production of size 4 if you time it right: the first turn, you get the new citizen of size 5 too. It would require a bit of planning so that the new citizen lands on the right tile, though. And you will have to hurry up your scheme with one turn, I'm not sure how it fits into the current plan.

DeepO

	30-08-2003 15:07									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Oh, and I'm not sure if you don't already were planning this, but if you need to irrigate a currently mined tile, take a shielded grassland. In GA, that will give us 1 more shield... maybe we can use that

DeepO

	30-08-2003 15:18									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Togas Please post how many turns remaining until we attack. --Togas

Depending on when we get that settler Togas....

I'm in favor of 6 turns from the next, but some like 10 from the next.

If we rush the settler this next turn, in Lux (costs us roughly 60 gold next turn), then we can attack in 3 turns from the next. Since it will take 3 turns for the settler to get there from Lux and build the Fort at 2-2 of Cuido.

Both of the previous options allows for more units to be built. Obviously we are on a timeline here with GCA breathing so hard down CFC's back. If there's a danger that CFC will declare peace with GCA AND give GCA Feudalism, then we should attack sooner. else if CFC will take the brunt of what GCA has to offer and will not give GCA Feudalism no matter what, then we can wait for the 6 or 10 turns from the next turn for us to get completely ready.

These are things that need to be discussed frankly with CFC. We tell them that if we attack sooner, there's a chance we could come to a stall at first, then surge ahead once our GA sets in. And if we wait a bit, we feel they will be no stall and GCA will imediately withdraw from encounters with CFC upon seeing such a devastating force coming at them from the North. These are the choices we need to present to CFC.

	30-08-2003 15:44									#8
	Re: Re: Rough plan to keep Banana growing while getting Settlers from other places Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Erh, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't growth come before production? In that case, you need one turn between going to virtual size 7 and building the settler. Otherwise, you would grow to size 7, can't, build the settler the same turn (size 4), and only next turn go to size 5... with loss of food. I'm not sure about this, but I thought it was like that. The same scheme could probably work, because the citizens which are formed immediately produce shields. You would never be with the production of size 4 if you time it right: the first turn, you get the new citizen of size 5 too. It would require a bit of planning so that the new citizen lands on the right tile, though. And you will have to hurry up your scheme with one turn, I'm not sure how it fits into the current plan. DeepO

You are right, the city would not ever reach size 7, so it would go to 4 when a settler was built, the food box would either be full and ready to grow to 5 the next turn or needed to be filled in order to grow on the next turn. So if we do this, so to minimize the loss of food, we plan on having the settler complete when the food box is nearly full and could be filled on the subsequent turn in order to grow. This will be acceptable in a GA, since shiled output will be high for even a size 4, and it is only for one turn at size 4.

We could also use a part of our GA to build an Aqueduct...

	30-08-2003 16:22									#9
	Support Apolyton

BigFree, with the above plan, you can get exactly the same performance, even not in GA. New citizens also deliver shields (which was not taken into account in Trip's post). So if you build a settler when the foodbox gets half filled at turn 1 (size 6->4), at turn 2 you get the production of a size 5. For a 4-turn settler you have production of twice size 5 and twice size 6... even if it seems like you have once size 4, twice size 5 and once size 6.

The plan in itself is okay, but you need to shift it 1 turn, a settler pump can't ever be allowed to go to virtual size 7. And it takes a bit of practice to make sure the citizens land on the right tiles...

DeepO

	30-08-2003 16:24									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh, and no need for aquaducts in settler pumps. I don't think it will be possible here, but 1-turn worker pumps or 3-turn settler pumps are way more powerful in the long run. If only we had one cow next to that game

DeepO

	30-08-2003 22:30									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

I'd really like to push for a Consular decision on when we're going to war. We shouldn't keep putting it off or hope that someone else (like a foreign nation) forces us into a decision.

I prefer we plan for sooner rather than later. Sooner can easily be moved back a few turns if things change. Later cannot easily be moved forward.

Plan on having less. If things work out well with GCA & CFC we can easily delay our attack another 4 turns to really give it to GCA. But if things go as we expect, and as OctavianX is hinting to us, we are going to need to get in there in and stir things up ASAP.

--Togas

p.s. I need to add that it's threads like this that make Apolyton great. I am extremely impressed with the exacting level of detail, planning, and presentation.

	30-08-2003 23:23									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree with Togas... the level of play and the quality of reporting / discussion is simply great.

I ALSO agree with Togas that we should be planning for the earliest war possible, and then as the dark hour draws near continually re-assess.

	31-08-2003 01:01									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by BigFree But....we do need a settler right now, or in the next 2-3 turns at least. So we either rush it in Lux or in HoD in the next 2 turns. We will have plenty of gold for all of our upgrades and for the needed investigations of GCA cities with more than a 100 gold to spare.

That was actually part of the plan.

After Apolyton finishes its NM this turn it can grow in 3 turns and while at 10 SPT it can finish a Settler in 3 turns (for all intents and purposes this is how it works, as DeepO pointed out). In the future we can stagger growth and SPT output in Apolyton so that it doesn't fill the food box before reaching size 7 (or we can mess with things to get less FPT but more shields for Apolyton... pretty flexible).

Due to growth then shields we can have another city besides Apolyton work the Game on the final turn of the Settler. So the Settler finishes in 3, drops pop to 4, then next turn grows to 5 (and gets the size 5 shields). This allows us to maintain 10 SPT at all times but as DeepO pointed out, means we have to alter things just a bit to make it work.

	31-08-2003 01:01									#14
	Put an end to popups!

The war will surely rekindle a lot of interest in this game.

That's almost reason enough to attack ASAP.


Dominae

	31-08-2003 02:59									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Because I only have a bit of time to glance at this, I can't comment too much on this, BUT...

Looks good, also, this will allow us a bit of time to get that tile irrigated. I would also like to have a bonus tile irrigated, that way we still get the extra sheild for the GA.

MoI E_T

	31-08-2003 04:41									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by E_T Because I only have a bit of time to glance at this, I can't comment too much on this, BUT... Looks good, also, this will allow us a bit of time to get that tile irrigated. I would also like to have a bonus tile irrigated, that way we still get the extra sheild for the GA. MoI E_T

To irrigate a shielded tile that Apolyton can use would mean irrigating more than one tile; which is not what we want to do. Also, 3 of BFC allows for 3 different cities to work that irrigated tile if need be (Apolyton, BFC and Incensity). It's would be nice to have it every way we want it, but sometimes you have to take it as it is given to you.

If you think it would be worth it to irrigate a shielded tile then 3 of Mingapulco might be it. But, that would throw off the balance of SPT we currently have right now. During a GA, it would work out, but before and after, it causes problems with attaining at least a 10 SPT average each between our 3 big cities right now.

	31-08-2003 23:17									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

All units (excepting upgrading Swordsmen) in Army Group A/B (AGA/B) to remain (fortified) on the road tile 8 of Cuido where they can maintain the maximum mobility to deal with a GCA threat.

AGA/B contains: 3 vet Horseman, 6 vet MIs, 5 vet Swordsmen (upgrading), 4 vet NMs, 1 elite Warrior (19 units)

All Swordsmen left in the main city core upgrade in Mingapulco:

M07 VII. Scourge
M08 VIII. Steelglove
M09 IX. Hawkeye
M10 X. Grog
M11 XI. Slash

G01 I. PoA moves 7-8-8.
G02 II. Expedition [Flash, Jagjef] moves 6-6-3 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with the Swordsmen.

M01 I. Vlad joins AGA/B.
M02 II. PanzerInfantry moves 2-1.
M03 III. Arnelos moves 2-1.
M04 IV. E_T moves 2-1.
M05 V. Theseus moves 2-1.
M06 VI. 'Incensity' moves towards AGA/B.

H03 III. VonHorseman moves to the tile with the Worker.

S05 V. Hack moves 3; Heading back towards AGA/B.

N01 I. MerZenary attacks the barb or moves 8 if it is not visible.
N04 IV. Togas moves 4 towards the PoA launching point.
N08 VIII. Numidian Master joins AGA/B.
N09 IX. 'Apolyton' moves towards AGA/B

C01 I. 'Catapult' moves 2-1 into the AGA/B gathering point.

W02 II. BigFree moves 2-7 and fortifies (scouting cycle).
W04 IV. BFW moves 8-8-8 towards gold hill north of BFC.
W07 VII. WhiteBandit moves 4 towards the PoA launching point.
W08 VIII. Not_Panag moves 4-4 towards Equilibrium.
W12 XII. WWNN moves 6.

All other units to remain as they are.

	01-09-2003 12:00									#18
	Tired of ads?

Turn halted!

I have been waiting around a bit for others to show up. In the mean time, I thought I would get a start on by moving the easy bits around. Well...

We have contact with a German galley just north of CFC.

I think the FAM should get busy. We should burn as much time as we need for this turn.

We are strong vs Webring. We have feudalism, they do not. Unfortunately, there is some not so good news...

	01-09-2003 13:45									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In chat right now, but not for much longer for me.

Trip, Togas, and I agreed that an embassy with GWT for 57 gold is a good idea. It is done. We now have more information for the diplomats to deal with.

We also want to draw the German galley north, away from GCA. So them seeing where Poly is is a bonus.

	01-09-2003 15:08									#20
	Support Apolyton

wow this is big, sink the galley to stop it contacting GCA .

their city screen seems bizarre? developed tiles not being worked by a non industrious civ, especially ones that are so close to their capital.

I guess they're alternating labourers between the wheat tile and the forest tile, ne,ne to get growth every other turn and about 9 spt, non of those other gl tiles would be bonus or they'd be working them,

with 7 excess food they'll be able to grow at 2nd tier level every 3 turns!!!

guessing where the other cities are from the tiles being worked is always a good game, my guess is they have one either ne,ne,ne or ne,n,n otherwise how could they be working the tile 1 n of the capital

	01-09-2003 15:22									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Just a couple other things on GWT: They have 2 captured Firaxis Workers.

Also (as NYE pointed out), our military is strong compared with theirs.

Unfortunately even after upgrades and new units we're still average with GCA.

Last edited by Trip on 01-09-2003 at 15:29

	01-09-2003 17:12									#22
	Remove this text

the position of the German galley is not favourable to us. If they head South, and it looks as if they are heading that way, they will find CFC in the next turn.

And if there are GCA Swords & Horsemen near the coast, which is possible, the galley can spot them too.

But well done everybody. And the decision to set up an embassy deserves a thumbs-up.

	01-09-2003 17:27									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

An interesting question: If we had had enough movement points to attack the galley and killed it, would the Germans have contact with us? If not, they wouldn't know what happened to it! Too late now though...

We should do absolutely everything we can to try and draw it north, but not sound too strong about it....

How about reverse psychology? We tell them VERY strongly NOT to go northwest, and get them to do it! I think this would be the best way to keep them away from GCA and CFC as long as possible.

	01-09-2003 17:33									#24
	Remove this text

Some observations and comments from the chat room:

civman2000: Even if it was possible to attack the galley, if we did destroy it, GWT would notice that they were at war with us on the diplo screen.

Chances are that when they see we've established an embassy in their capital, they'll do the same to us. When they discover its location, they should head there directly, conveniently missing GCA.

They're on 70% tax, 20% lux and 10% sci, probably doing mono or feud in 40 turns.

Edit: (clicked the button too early, doh) They've got two horses and one iron in their resource box. This leaves only one iron unaccounted for. It's possible that CGN has that iron, given their high score. You can imagine that there have been conflicts waged over the two irons on their continent; we might be able to do some trading with our surplus irons.

In general, GWT isn't as strong as we might have feared. Their power isn't all that much higher than ours, and their military is worse. We may be able to overtake them quickly if the war goes well.

	01-09-2003 17:35									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think it would be unwise to play games with the Webring team, most unwise in fact. There's a lot we don't know about them right now. They won't appreciate being jacked around.

The first thing that jumps out at me is that they may in fact not be that dangerous after all - huge culture, high score, weak army? Either they just got their teeth kicked in fighting someone, or the key to the Webringen score has been wide city spacing and temple-building.

Given what we know of everyone else's score, I doubt they just got their teeth kicked in. Does that mean the other goliath-score team is the one beating down BOTH Firaxis and Grenny, or is the state of the militaries over on their continent that pathetic?

	01-09-2003 17:39									#26
	Got spare money?

FP: As Trip noted, GWT has two captured Firaxis workers. Clearly there must have been some war between them, which GWT probably won.

	01-09-2003 17:46									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

well, we have one captured CDG worker too.

	01-09-2003 17:54									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

why would they build roads on non-irrigated plains?

	01-09-2003 18:00									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Adrian Hon Chances are that when they see we've established an embassy in their capital, they'll do the same to us. When they discover its location, they should head there directly, conveniently missing GCA.

When you establish an embassy with another civ, they automatically have an embassy too. Further, they now know the location of our capital, they have the same 22 tiles uncovered on their map.

And I agree, don't play games with them, it's the same group as ND, and they don't respond well to 'games' and manipulations.

DeepO

	01-09-2003 19:59									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by OPD why would they build roads on non-irrigated plains?

If you're not going to use a tile right away, and/or you're not sure what you're going to do with a tile, it's better to just Road it and send your Workers on their way deeper into the empire. This way it's faster to Irrigate/Mine at a later date. It demonstrates some pretty darn good efficiency on their part.

Here are my comments without having been to chat yet:

1. As I alluded to above, just from their micromanagement, this team is not a bunch of push-overs. They're doing things very neatly and efficiently.

2. Not to point out the obvious, but: we sure got the short end of the stick with respect to starting spots! 1 Wheat, 2 Game!? Pretty much the only they're missing is Hills, which they can sort of compensate for by putting Mines on their Plains.

3. I doubt they are using very loose city-spacing. There are clearly tiles being shared by the capital. I think they've got something between 3 and 4-tile spacing going. Remember that our build is so close out of necessity: if we had great lands, it probably would have been better (in the long run) to expand out first, instead of turtling as we have.

4. As to the weakness of their military: I imagine the most likely possibility is that two or more teams on that continent struck a "super-friendship" deal that has allowed them to expand peacefully without having to worry too much about military. They would therefore just be gearing up for conquest now. GCA set a pretty high bar for military strength on our continent, which has not been matched over there.

5. Given the proximity to Coast and the lack of improvements, I would not be surprised to see their Palace jump sometime in the near-future. Can you set up an Embassy with a civ twice?


Dominae