04-09-2003 22:47									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Gerhard also seems to be getting kinda snarky himself about the issue of German troops for Iraq - seems he said something about the Greens acting as if they were in the opposition.

	04-09-2003 22:48									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: now why shouldn´t USA and GB carry all the risks and disadvantages alone? if you want the help of others, pay for it, offer a serious compromise. that´s how it works.

Germany and France likely will not help with troops or money in any event.

	04-09-2003 22:49									#33
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ming The next personal insult in this thread will earn somebody a restriction.

uh oh, im sorry i called Schroeder "snarky"

	04-09-2003 23:10									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: France and Germany are once again doing the same thing they always do; whinning about the problem they have no intention of fixing or helping to fix...

quote: Germany and France likely will not help with troops or money in any event.

oh yeah. Afghanistan and Macedonia are other brilliant examples for this.
maybe you will find even more....

quote: Do France, Russia and Germany claim that Iraq prior to the invasion was "undamaged"

hmm, I better should have said "crashed" instead of "damaged"
anyway, this is how the situation looks for me (in a very trivial description) : the USA and GB want to keep the full commmand and the full profit in Iraq (see Halliburton or Bechtel).
but when it comes to taking the risks they´re not willing to carry it all alone. that´s why they´re now looking for countries who are stupid enough to wipe their asses clean. may other soldiers die in future, may other nations pay the bills, it doesn´t matter as long as we keep the profit.
it´s legitimate to go to the UN and offer this for negotiation. but if you really expect any support, make clear that you´re also willing to give and not only to take.

feel free to correct me, if I´m wrong.

	04-09-2003 23:33									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

1441 did not specify war... that's why the Bush junta wanted another resolution before the invasion. I've read it, and that's why I understand it.

	05-09-2003 00:05									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by oedo anyway, this is how the situation looks for me (in a very trivial description) : the USA and GB want to keep the full commmand and the full profit in Iraq (see Halliburton or Bechtel). but when it comes to taking the risks they´re not willing to carry it all alone. that´s why they´re now looking for countries who are stupid enough to wipe their asses clean. may other soldiers die in future, may other nations pay the bills, it doesn´t matter as long as we keep the profit. it´s legitimate to go to the UN and offer this for negotiation. but if you really expect any support, make clear that you´re also willing to give and not only to take.

	05-09-2003 00:06									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I agree with oedo's interpretation as well.

	05-09-2003 00:16									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I dno't see why the rest of the world should bail us out because we didn't know what the **** we were doing. They lied to the American people and the rest of the world, they refused to ackowledge that the majority of people in the US and abroad didn't want a war, but they did it anyway. They thought Iraq would roll over and sit up and beg and play dead on command. They thought that all they had to do was decapitate the government, and everything else would stay in place. They were wrong. And they didn't even have a plan in case they were wrong, even though both the intelligence community and the Pentagon told them they were wrong. The would rather listen to a bunch of biased exiles than what their experts were telling them. And they didn't even have an exit plan, despite mister "I would never send US troops in someplace without an exit plan" Bush.

This is our mess. We should acceppt some of that personal responsibility for our actions that conservatives are always talking about. Bush just wants to get American troops out and let others do the dying so he can try and get elected next year.

	05-09-2003 00:19									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: This is our mess. We should acceppt some of that personal responsibility for our actions that conservatives are always talking about. Bush just wants to get American troops out and let others do the dying so he can try and get elected next year.

I agree... but I don't want to see the Iraqi people suffer just to spite Bush...

	05-09-2003 00:23									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara IThe would rather listen to a bunch of biased exiles than what their experts were telling them.

Actually we didnt listen to the exiles. The exiles wanted to go in with their own forces quickly when the occupation began, and to use their own knowledge of Iraq to quickly vett and stand up police and militia forces. that was vetoed, apparently cause State and CIA didnt trust the exiles.

The admin may well have made serious mistakes, but going with the exiles was not one of them.

	05-09-2003 00:23									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The Iraqi people will suffer with or without us, and probably much worse without us. If we leave now, Iraq will be the new Afganistan and more people will hate of for destroying Iraq and slinking away.

I have to break with the anti-war movement on this issue. It's better for almost everyone in the long run if the US remains, or at least the UN. But I see no reason for the UN to get involved if they don't have any athority.

If Bush wants out, he should suck it up, grow smoe bals, and admit he was wrong and that we can't handle it and turn it over to the UN. Not this half-assed bullshit about the UN contributing money and troops but not having a say. We would never do such a thing, why should anyone else.

	05-09-2003 00:27									#42
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MikeH I've read it. Of course this is another war, harping back to previous resolutions is just cheap spin because they didn't have any evidence to create a new resolution.

Mike: I'd have to disagree with you on this one. The original cease fire did call for Iraq to dis arm and that it allow this disarming to be watched by the UN further only the UN gets to say when it is satisfied. Iraq didn't complete it's side of the deal so why should the cease fire still be in effect? Further it was the US, on behalf of the UN, which signed the cease fire but only if Iraq agreed to follow the stipulations. Effectively it really was a continuation of an authorized UN opporation.

	05-09-2003 00:28									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ming,
I am going to insult someone but its RUSSIA, GERMANY AND FRANCE.
I don't want help from those pieces of sh!t. If we need more troops send the 75000 from Germany, or send the 75000 troops home and send 75000 troops to Iraq that may be better suited, I don't know if the troops in Germany are the kind we need in Iraq. Lets also get that Iraqi military and police going. Put them between our soldiers and the terrorists/baath loyalists.
Then lets take a certian percentage off the top of their oil to help pay for the cost of the war. There will be no immediate returns, but within a year I see some monetary support coming back. We still need patience.

	05-09-2003 00:28									#44
	Increase Your PM Length

All things being equal, I'd rather have more UN involvement, even if it is in the form of troops under our control. This would allow for less American deaths, and less American faces to blame for things in Iraq.

Ideally, I'd like to see a UN force and authority come in and take control of all of Iraq's rebuilding duties, with the US simply remaining on the offensive in search of Saddam and terrorists.

	05-09-2003 00:32									#45
	Get a bigger avatar today!

cmon guys - this is horsetrading

why will they help us

1. cause an Iraq in chaos is more dangerous to them than a US success in the mideast
2. Cause by getting the US to give up some control, they reduce the odds of a big US success, thus change the tradeoff in 1
3. Cause they want to get cut in on contracts (see Haliburton Bechtel Fina Lukeoil Siemens etc)

The US wants them in cause while we can handle the current situation, and hope in the long run to get Iraqis to take care of their own situation, we have a gap running from this winter for another year or so where the Iraqis arent ready yet and we need to rotate troops out. (BTW dont expect too many of the new troops to die - reports are that US commanders want them for demining, and peacekeeping in quiet areas - US troops will continue to do the offensive operations)

To get that we will have to give up some control - the devil is in the details - how much control can we give up, and still keep to our strategic goals, and how much will the others need to support the res.


Interestingly Russia and China are making more positive noises than France and Germany. Let the horsetrading begin.

	05-09-2003 00:38									#46
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Mike: I'd have to disagree with you on this one. The original cease fire . . .

Only timed cease-fire's autmoatically expire. Since the cease-fire was with the UN, it was fully within the UN's pervue to decide whether or not to restart hostilities.

BTW, there's no such thing as a a war with a twevle year cease fire. This was two seperate wars.

	05-09-2003 00:42									#47
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Defiant Ming, I am going to insult someone but its RUSSIA, GERMANY AND FRANCE. I don't want help from those pieces of sh!t. If we need more troops send the 75000 from Germany, or send the 75000 troops home and send 75000 troops to Iraq that may be better suited, I.

Problem with that is those troops are not considered "deployed" Ie they are in comfy places where they have housing for their families. And they are supposed to be doing training, etc. Cant units deployed in definitely. Right now the plan is to have units spend one year deployed, then 6 months off. With deployments in Korea, Afghan, and Iraq, that basically accounts for ALL active combat and MP units in the army. Cant increase that deployment tempo without creating recruitment retention problems, and probably reducing troop training and quality. Could use more Nat. Guard, but theyre already strained and having recruitment problems. Could use the Marines, but you want some reserve in case of Korea or some other contingency.

Only real alternative is to count on getting enough Iraqis trained in time to rotate our troops. Depends how much of a gambler you are. If everything goes right - nothing gets worse in Iraq than it is today, and the recruitment and training goes well, we might be able to get along without more international troops. US generals are paid to NOT be gamblers, so they want the extra troops.

	05-09-2003 00:42									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Sava All things being equal, I'd rather have more UN involvement, even if it is in the form of troops under our control. This would allow for less American deaths, and less American faces to blame for things in Iraq. Ideally, I'd like to see a UN force and authority come in and take control of all of Iraq's rebuilding duties, with the US simply remaining on the offensive in search of Saddam and terrorists.

Noshit, Sherlock. So did Bush.

	05-09-2003 00:47									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Noshit, Sherlock. So did Bush.

so that's why he doesn't want the UN to control anything, right?

	05-09-2003 00:52									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Don't want the UN to control anything because they have the bizzaro midas touch - anything they touch turns into a problem.

	05-09-2003 00:53									#51
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Defiant Ming, I don't want help from those pieces of sh!t. If we need more troops send the 75000 from Germany, or send the 75000 troops home and send 75000 troops to Iraq that may be better suited, I don't know if the troops in Germany are the kind we need in Iraq.

Oh please, do it. Do it now! No need to hesitate. Pull them out, quick! We'll applaud. Good riddance!

	05-09-2003 00:54									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I have to break with the anti-war movement on this issue. It's better for almost everyone in the long run if the US remains, or at least the UN. But I see no reason for the UN to get involved if they don't have any athority.

the notion of having UN troops under US command was apparently suggested by Kofi Annan himself.

And the nations most likely to contribute troops - Turkey, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - will probably not have much input in running Iraq, no matter how much say the "UN" gets.

what this boils down to is this - the aforesaid 4 countries who want to improve their relations with the US and get US paid experience for their troops, want UNSC cover to make it more palatable domestically. France, Germany and Russia can deny this cover, unless the US offers control to THEM. They get the control (in the form of a UN rep who reports to the UNSC) in exchange for putting their votes to a resolution - NOT in exchange for troops - Schroeder has already said no troops anyway. Russia may contribute troops though.

	05-09-2003 01:14									#53
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Oh please, do it. Do it now! No need to hesitate. Pull them out, quick! We'll applaud. Good riddance!

How's your ecomony doing?

Doesn't matter, Poland is going to be the next European leader.

	05-09-2003 01:17									#54
	Got spare money?

quote: How's your ecomony doing?

uhmmm yeah, we're not doing so hot either...

quote: Doesn't matter, Poland is going to be the next European leader

nah, just like Russia... a cesspool...

	05-09-2003 01:19									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Sava uhmmm yeah, we're not doing so hot either... nah, just like Russia... a cesspool...

Yea, we are not doing that great and we are still #1.

Poland will be different, US backed.

	05-09-2003 01:22									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Defiant How's your ecomony doing?

Fine. Yours?

quote: Doesn't matter, Poland is going to be the next European leader.

In car theft they already are.

	05-09-2003 01:23									#57
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Sava so that's why he doesn't want the UN to control anything, right?

Now? Screw them, now.
Britian is co-running.
They have the right. Been there since Day 1; unlike France and Germany and Russia who's only concern was hiding their dirty deals.
You're amazing. Truly.

AND, you don't understand 1441 either.

	05-09-2003 01:24									#58
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Yea, we are not doing that great and we are still #1.

not in terms of standard of living or quality of life... GDP is the wrong way to judge such things... just because a handful of super-rich corporations are doing well, doesn't mean the rest of us are.

	05-09-2003 01:25									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: AND, you don't understand 1441 either.

you're right... I don't understand your warped interpretation of it...

	05-09-2003 01:26									#60
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The Russians will gladly pitch in.

They want their oil fields back, after all.