05-09-2003 01:59									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Gepap, I still don't believe 90-120 billion as an incremental cost increase(those aircraft carriers would still be swimming), if we didn't go to war, what would have the true savings been and don't forget that the economy got a 3% boost from the war activity from defense spending.

That 3% boost will not remain, since most of the upcoming costs will sink in Iraq.

I have heard figures that to keep the forces in Iraq as they are costs about 2 billion A WEEK, or 8 billion a month approximately. that does not included things like airforce planes and Navy forces which are returning home (if they have not already done so). So, about 2 billion a week, 8 billion a month, 12*8 or 96 billion a year.. (which falls in line with the 90-120 billion a year estimate).

All of it coming straight out of the Treasury. Note as well that when the CBO estimated the nudget deficit to have hit 480 billion this year, it did not include ANY of the costs of the Iraq war.

	05-09-2003 02:04									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The acceptance has sunken to an all time low. I think it's time to pack. Send them to your new friends, the Poles. They will be honored. It will take a few decades till they become sick of them too.

Are The German Politicians pushing the exit of US Troops too? If so whats taking so long?

	05-09-2003 02:10									#93
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Kick the US out of NATO!

	05-09-2003 02:18									#94
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Nah. Dissolve the NATO at all.

CorpusScorpius: Those who are in power now, don't push.

	05-09-2003 02:19									#95
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Technically speaking, I think UN troops would handle the occupation better than the Americans. The Yankie soldiers are trained to kick ass, and as long as they had to deal with regular troops in the battlefield, that worked fine. But the war is supposed to be over. Kicking ass is not a smart way to win the hearts of civilians.

On the other hand, the the arrogant Bush admin created this mess against the will of the World Community. Now they have to suit themselves and clean the crap up. That will be a good lesson for the next time.

	05-09-2003 03:18									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie On the other hand, the the arrogant Bush admin created this mess against the will of the World Community. Now they have to suit themselves and clean the crap up. That will be a good lesson for the next time.

Yes, instead of just going in alone so US troops can take the brunt of the attack and pay for most of the operation, we need to get the UN involved, so US troops can take the brunt of the attack, and pay for most of the operation.

This is just another case of "America is too powerful/strong/arrogant/fat, we'll show em this time! This demand for a UN resolution, and strong UN control is just a stalling tactic to give them more time to whine.

	05-09-2003 03:51									#97
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@ complete American misconception of Poland's role in Europe and especially the world

	05-09-2003 04:22									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion @ complete American misconception of Poland's role in Europe and especially the world

We like them better at the moment. Hence they are more important.

	05-09-2003 04:25									#99
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yeah, but someone called them the future European leader... that's hilarious

all they ever do is steal cars and bikes and search our waste bins for stuff they can sell at the ukrainian border

	05-09-2003 05:27									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Only timed cease-fire's autmoatically expire. Since the cease-fire was with the UN, it was fully within the UN's pervue to decide whether or not to restart hostilities. BTW, there's no such thing as a a war with a twevle year cease fire. This was two seperate wars.

Try Korea. A 50 year cease fire w/no peace treaty

	05-09-2003 05:38									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion yeah, but someone called them the future European leader... that's hilarious

Well its true. They are the future New European leader.

	05-09-2003 14:02									#102
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New European, of course, and if it means we redefine New Europe as Poland and... umm... Slovak Republic

	05-09-2003 14:22									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Verto This is just another case of "America is too powerful/strong/arrogant/fat, we'll show em this time! This demand for a UN resolution, and strong UN control is just a stalling tactic to give them more time to whine.

Isn´t the US proposing a new UN resolution right now

	05-09-2003 14:29									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We like them better at the moment. Hence they are more important.

I always thought you are a realist....

	05-09-2003 23:56									#105
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quote: Originally posted by GePap BUt the fact is that 1441, even if calling for seriius consequences, does not spell them out, and NO, a phrase saying "serious consequence" does not equal war.

In general it does not mean war, but in the discussion leading up to the passage of 1441 it was understood that it meant war. Powell said this in the UNSC. Did any diplomat from any of the countries that voted for 1441 contradict him on this? If so, please give a citation.

	05-09-2003 23:57									#106
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Isn´t the US proposing a new UN resolution right now

and who said we dont listen to other country's demands?

	05-09-2003 23:58									#107
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"In general it does not mean war, but in the discussion leading up to the passage of 1441 it was understood that it meant war."

Yes. But where does it say it is for the US to decide whether war is justified opr not?

	06-09-2003 00:00									#108
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"Give us money. But don't think this gives you the right to have a say in how we run things"

	06-09-2003 00:02									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie On the other hand, the the arrogant Bush admin created this mess against the will of the World Community.

Once again, we didnt create "this mess" Iraq was a "mess" for the entire period Saddam was in power. Hardly anyone in Iraq would go back to the situation as it was before the coalition went in. There are still plenty of problems. And naturally theres going to be give and take about control before the resolution is passed. But dont expect even the French to claim that the US created "this mess" - even they dont have the gall to assert that.


And Russia seems to moving away from the French position.

	06-09-2003 00:03									#110
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I always thought you are a realist....

	06-09-2003 00:07									#111
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "In general it does not mean war, but in the discussion leading up to the passage of 1441 it was understood that it meant war." Yes. But where does it say it is for the US to decide whether war is justified opr not?

Well they didnt give it to the US, cause they were afraid the US would use it as Casus Belli if Saddam said "we destroyed 1100 metric tonnes of VX on july 10", and we had evidence theyd destroyed 900 tonnes on July 12.
But it was assumed that if Saddam gave a flagrantly false declaration, that meant he was not in compliance, and so the UNSC would authorize war. Had that not been the case the US would NOT have agreed to that wording for 1441. And again, the french in their arguments against war did NOT argue that Saddam was not non-compliant with 1441. They also did NOT argue that serious consequences did not mean war. Instead they IGNORED 1441, and argued that war was not justified on general grounds, as if 1441 did not exist.

	06-09-2003 00:08									#112
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In other words, you went to war without the SC's authorisation.

	06-09-2003 00:09									#113
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So, where are all those CNB weapons again?

	06-09-2003 00:10									#114
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse "Give us money. But don't think this gives you the right to have a say in how we run things"

They give us money, they'll certainly get a say in how the money is spent - i beleive the plan is for a UN controlled development fund. Their will be a UN command - but the UN commander will be an American - this is the same arrangement as the Australians used in East Timor. The only dispute is about control over the political process. The current draft gives the UN only a little say. There will probably be compromise, but not giving the UN full control.

France wont like that. But we dont need French troops. Or French money for that matter. All we need is for France to not veto the resolution. And for that theyre not going to get full UN control.

	06-09-2003 00:13									#115
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In other words, you went to war without the SC's authorisation.

We went to war with the authorization implicit in 1441. Clearly 1441 meant war if there was non-compliance. There WAS non-compliance, and no on on the UNSC disputed that. Ergo we went to war based on 1441. (not to mention the earlier resolutions, the ceasefire, etc) Is my interpretation wrong? certainly no state introduced a UNSC resolution saying that it was.

	06-09-2003 00:14									#116
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse So, where are all those CNB weapons again?

and where do you think they are?

	06-09-2003 00:19									#117
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I don't see why other countries should jump in now that Dubya sees his election slipping down the drain, and Iraq already slowly ending up on the same embarrasment scale as Somalia. If they expect other countries troops to come in and be under an US flag they are fairly deluded. What you'd want is a UN peacekeeping force under the command of a muslim country such as Turkey or Pakistan.

As for money to US companies, this is what i can find in todays Independent (prolly online as well, but can't be arsed looking.

Halliburton - $1.7Bn in contracts so far through it Brown and Root subsidiary for work on oilfields, support at military bases and logistical backup for intelligence officers. 95% of total political contibutions 99-02 ($710k) went to Republicans.

Bechtel - $680M so far for rebuilding, Could rise to $20Bn. Just under 60% of $1.3M of political donations to Republicans.

SSAMarine - $62.6M to open Umm Qasar port. 80% of donations to Republicans.

DynCorp - $50M for first year advising new Iraqi government. 70% of donations to Republicans.

RTI International - $7.9M to promote Iraqi participation in rebuilding. $3,691 to Democrats, nothing to Republicans

Abt - $10M to $43.8M for public health work. $4900 to Democrats, nothing to Republicans.

	06-09-2003 00:24									#118
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue I don't see why other countries should jump in now that Dubya sees his election slipping down the drain, and Iraq already slowly ending up on the same embarrasment scale as Somalia. If they expect other countries troops to come in and be under an US flag they are fairly deluded. What you'd want is a UN peacekeeping force under the command of a muslim country such as Turkey or Pakistan. As for money to US companies, this is what i can find in todays Independent (prolly online as well, but can't be arsed looking. Halliburton - $1.7Bn in contracts so far through it Brown and Root subsidiary for work on oilfields, support at military bases and logistical backup for intelligence officers. 95% of total political contibutions 99-02 ($710k) went to Republicans. Bechtel - $680M so far for rebuilding, Could rise to $20Bn. Just under 60% of $1.3M of political donations to Republicans. SSAMarine - $62.6M to open Umm Qasar port. 80% of donations to Republicans. DynCorp - $50M for first year advising new Iraqi government. 70% of donations to Republicans. RTI International - $7.9M to promote Iraqi participation in rebuilding. $3,691 to Democrats, nothing to Republicans Abt - $10M to $43.8M for public health work. $4900 to Democrats, nothing to Republicans.

yeah guys in the oil business donate to republicans, and people who do public health and social service consulting donate to Democrats - and people in the heavy construction business donate both ways. This is surprising??

	06-09-2003 00:27									#119
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue I What you'd want is a UN peacekeeping force under the command of a muslim country such as Turkey or Pakistan. .

Youve got to be kidding, right?

Turkish commander on arriving: Ok boys, welcome back to the loving arms of the Ottoman empire. Now isnt everybody happy? especially you kurds.

Pakistani commander - Oh, no WE the Pakistani govt doesnt support Al Qaeeda, oh no,......


There may be Turks and Pakis in the mix, but certainly not in overall command.

	06-09-2003 00:28									#120
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Not necessarily, the amounts and percentages are though. It does seem that they bought their contracts (Bechtel was also the primary contractor in the Boston Big Dig project which USAiD (the body going over the contracts) admin Andrew Nastios headed).

And it is not surprising. Disgraceful perhaps... companies subsidizing political parties and then meing rewarded for it just leaves this nasty taste in my mouth. Anyone seen the second series of 24 by the way?