06-09-2003 00:33									#121
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Not necessarily, the amounts and percentages are though. It does seem that they bought their contracts (Bechtel was also the primary contractor in the Boston Big Dig project which USAiD (the body going over the contracts) admin Andrew Nastios headed). And it is not surprising. Disgraceful perhaps... companies subsidizing political parties and then meing rewarded for it just leaves this nasty taste in my mouth. Anyone seen the second series of 24 by the way?

i think you miss my point - the oil companies and oil service firms give to the GOP not for contracts (their customers are usually private sector) but cause the GOP is more favorable to the oil industry - especially on environmental stuff. Social service firms donate to Democrats cause the dems will increas spending on social services. Heavy construction companies give to both, cause they want to keep both in line for infrastructure spending, and maybe also to get contracts.

I suspect youd have a hard time finding a major oil services firm in the US that mainly donated to Democrats. Or a reputable social services consultant that mainly gave to Republicans. Of a major heavy construction company that didnt give to both.

	06-09-2003 00:35									#122
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark We went to war with the authorization implicit in 1441. Clearly 1441 meant war if there was non-compliance.

There was no authorization in 1441. 1441 means war as one possible consequence, if and when yet to be determined by the SC. The French (and with them several others in the SC) said "Not yet", especially as Blix gave a mixed report on Iraqi compliance.

	06-09-2003 00:36									#123
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quote: reputable social services consultant

Well, anyway, your right LotM... Democracy was built on bribery

	06-09-2003 00:37									#124
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quote: Originally posted by GePap That 3% boost will not remain, since most of the upcoming costs will sink in Iraq. I have heard figures that to keep the forces in Iraq as they are costs about 2 billion A WEEK, or 8 billion a month approximately. that does not included things like airforce planes and Navy forces which are returning home (if they have not already done so). So, about 2 billion a week, 8 billion a month, 12*8 or 96 billion a year.. (which falls in line with the 90-120 billion a year estimate). All of it coming straight out of the Treasury. Note as well that when the CBO estimated the nudget deficit to have hit 480 billion this year, it did not include ANY of the costs of the Iraq war.

GePap,
I am not saying your wrong but I would like to see the breakdown, it's hard to believe 2 billion a week,[incrementally], also it did cost THE USA money for maintaing the no-fly zone and other blockade costs, which are now either not needed or cannot be counted in the incremental cost because they were already a sunk cost, is that taken into account?

	06-09-2003 00:39									#125
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler There was no authorization in 1441. 1441 means war as one possible consequence, if and when yet to be determined by the SC. The French (and with them several others in the SC) said "Not yet", especially as Blix gave a mixed report on Iraqi compliance.

1441 called for complete compliance. No one disputed that complete compliance was absent. The "not yet" was in complete disregard of UNSC 1441. Ergo the US and UK acted under 1441, which clearly intended war if complete compliance were not achieved.

	06-09-2003 00:42									#126
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler . 1441 means war as one possible consequence,

Powell said in the UNSC that "everyone knew" that serious consequences meant war - if anyone on the UNSC contradicted him, please share the citation.

	06-09-2003 00:51									#127
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So guys, where are the weapons of mass destruction? We've spent more time in there looking for them then the UN inspections team has and we havnt found them. The only weapons of mass destruction we've found is macdonald's kitchen.

Where's saddam? thats the million dollar question. First he's dead, now he's gone.
Chemical Ali was supposed to be dead, but looks like Allah loved him so much, he sent him back to finish his job.

I'd say this whole adventure is one big cluster****. Saddam was obviously no threat to us since there are no weapons of mass destruction. The army cant even get the water running. Didn't bush say 'No nation building'? Yes he did. What a liar.
Now we are billions into debt, and we want to spend more money on Iraq. maybe we should increase taxes on those who support the war and make them pay for rebuilding iraq.

Not likely since those who are willing to spend the governments money are unlikely to want to give more of their own.

Pathetic Hipocrites.

	06-09-2003 00:54									#128
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quote: Pathetic Hipocrites.

Pathetic?

Yup Sadam is AWOL, for now

As for WOMD... That is Sadam. He was the one killing billions! of people, hows that for a F*****g weapon?

	06-09-2003 00:55									#129
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"The "not yet" was in complete disregard of UNSC 1441. Ergo the US and UK acted under 1441, which clearly intended war if complete compliance were not achieved."

quote: 12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security; 13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

The SC threatening war does not mean the US acted under 1441 when it went to war. 1441 did not authorize a war against Iraq. End of story.

	06-09-2003 00:58									#130
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "The "not yet" was in complete disregard of UNSC 1441. Ergo the US and UK acted under 1441, which clearly intended war if complete compliance were not achieved." quote: 12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security; 13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations; The SC threatening war does not mean the US acted under 1441 when it went to war. 1441 did not authorize a war against Iraq. End of story.

You still have not cited anything in the UNSC debate that responded to Powells assertion.

	06-09-2003 01:00									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia So guys, where are the weapons of mass destruction?

Yup. where are they? Iraq had them in the early '90's - no one disputes that - what do you say happened to them?

	06-09-2003 01:02									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Chemical Ali was supposed to be dead, but looks like Allah loved him so much, he sent him back to finish his job.

Theres no such person as chemical ali. You must be referring to "conventional Ali" , since Iraq never had any chemical weapons.

	06-09-2003 01:02									#133
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quote: As for WOMD... That is Sadam. He was the one killing billions! of people, hows that for a F*****g weapon?

So is Kim Il Jong, but we arnt about to invade them. Same with Somalia, but we arnt there, same with Congo, but we arnt there. Killing billions is no longer a reason, expecially when you ignore some and choose others.

	06-09-2003 01:03									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia So guys, where are the weapons of mass destruction? We've spent more time in there looking for them then the UN inspections team has and we havnt found them. The only weapons of mass destruction we've found is macdonald's kitchen. Where's saddam? thats the million dollar question. First he's dead, now he's gone. Chemical Ali was supposed to be dead, but looks like Allah loved him so much, he sent him back to finish his job. I'd say this whole adventure is one big cluster****. Saddam was obviously no threat to us since there are no weapons of mass destruction. The army cant even get the water running. Didn't bush say 'No nation building'? Yes he did. What a liar. Now we are billions into debt, and we want to spend more money on Iraq. maybe we should increase taxes on those who support the war and make them pay for rebuilding iraq. Not likely since those who are willing to spend the governments money are unlikely to want to give more of their own. Pathetic Hipocrites.

Larry, take your sub par grades from school and go away, don't go away mad, just go away.

	06-09-2003 01:03									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia The army cant even get the water running.

Wheres this? What city in Iraq doesnt have water now?

	06-09-2003 01:04									#136
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Theres no such person as chemical ali. You must be referring to "conventional Ali" , since Iraq never had any chemical weapons.

nicely put LotM.

	06-09-2003 01:04									#137
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quote: So is Kim Il Jong, but we arnt about to invade them. Same with Somalia, but we arnt there, same with Congo, but we arnt there. Killing billions is no longer a reason, expecially when you ignore some and choose others.

I guess your right, but there was also the "little" thing about Sadam supporting the terrorists...

	06-09-2003 01:06									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Where's saddam? thats the million dollar question. First he's dead, now he's gone. .

we havent found him, after searching for months. Obviously he never existed - all reports of his existence were lies by Bush and Blair

	06-09-2003 01:08									#139
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quote: Yup. where are they? Iraq had them in the early '90's - no one disputes that - what do you say happened to them?

I don't know, you tell me.

quote: Theres no such person as chemical ali. You must be referring to "conventional Ali" , since Iraq never had any chemical weapons.

I never said that. In 1989, Saddam launched a gas attack on the Kurds in Halabjah. He also launched gas attacks against the Iranians. Obviously those weapons dont existe anymore, or we would have found them

quote: Larry, take your sub par grades from school and go away, don't go away mad, just go away.

Awwww Im sorry. Did I bust your bubble of self delusionment?

quote: Wheres this? What city in Iraq doesnt have water now?

Baghdad, Tikrit, Karbala, Nassiriyah, Mosul

	06-09-2003 01:10									#140
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark You still have not cited anything in the UNSC debate that responded to Powells assertion.

For what? It's irrelevant. All your argument can amount to is that the SC SHOULD have authorized war. It didn't. And "should have" does not replace a resolution.

If you think a judge should have convicted someone, but didn't, that doesn't give you a right to go lynching.

	06-09-2003 01:11									#141
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quote: I guess your right, but there was also the "little" thing about Sadam supporting the terrorists...

And how about that 'little' thing of Somalia being a terrorist state, or of Syria supporting terrorists, or how about Pakistan supporting terrorists in the Kashmir?

	06-09-2003 01:13									#142
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark You must be referring to "conventional Ali"

	06-09-2003 01:14									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Baghdad, Tikrit, Karbala, Nassiriyah, Mosul

'Baghdad, Iraq...August 17, 2003 - A water main serving Baghdad was ruptured today, around 7am this morning.

Engineering crews have been working all day to repair the damage.

Water supply is expected to be restored later this evening.

Faris Abdul Razaq Al-Aasam Deputy Mayor of Baghdad said:

"Ordinarily it would take 36 hrs to restore the water supply after a break of this sort but the dedicated work of city employees means that I expect water to be restored by late this evening."'

Coalition Press Release.

Come back when you have some facts.

	06-09-2003 01:16									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia And how about that 'little' thing of Somalia being a terrorist state, or of Syria supporting terrorists, or how about Pakistan supporting terrorists in the Kashmir?

Now you are finally starting to understand why we now have a presence in the ME(the breeding ground for terrorists). If Somalia or near by regions fly an aircraft into buildings here in America, be ready for another war on the African continent. Our shot into Iraq is a warning for these other countries that we will not tolerate hits to America.

	06-09-2003 01:17									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia I never said that. In 1989, Saddam launched a gas attack on the Kurds in Halabjah. He also launched gas attacks against the Iranians. Obviously those weapons dont existe anymore, or we would have found them

So what happened to them between 1989 and 2002. Where did they go?

	06-09-2003 01:22									#146
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It must be very galling(sp?) for President Bush and his main 'hawks' in the cabinet.

I notice he isnt saying much about it, but from the John Wayne bravado at the outset, to having to swallow this rather large dose of 's**t maybe we need the UN after all!?'.
Very embarassing, hell i'm embarassed for him - and i tend to feel he represents the anti-christ

Still i think we(the U.S. and U.K.) should just shoulder this problem of our creation - i hope the rest of the world just tells us to go f**k ourselves. This whole twisted event needs to go down in history for exactly what it is. The truth is slowly coming out as the the reasons and events leading up to this bungle, we should start to watch and act upon our governments activities much more closely.

What a climb down, its glorious if you can ignore all the inoccent people it killed and is killing(our boyz).

	06-09-2003 01:22									#147
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"quote:
12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;

13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations"

It did not explicitly authorize war. It ALSO did not explicitly say that a second resolution was required. It was a compromise between the two sides that avoided the question of whether a second resolution would be needed in order to keep the UNSC united. I doubt either side will ever agree with a compromise like that again.

	06-09-2003 01:28									#148
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor It must be very galling(sp?) for President Bush and his main 'hawks' in the cabinet. I notice he isnt saying much about it, but from the John Wayne bravado at the outset, to having to swallow this rather large dose of 's**t maybe we need the UN after all!?'. Very embarassing, hell i'm embarassed for him - and i tend to feel he represents the anti-christ Still i think we(the U.S. and U.K.) should just shoulder this problem of our creation - i hope the rest of the world just tells us to go f**k ourselves. This whole twisted event needs to go down in history for exactly what it is. The truth is slowly coming out as the the reasons and events leading up to this bungle, we should start to watch and act upon our governments activities much more closely. What a climb down, its glorious if you can ignore all the inoccent people it killed and is killing(our boyz).

climbdown ?
Wolfie now says that he always supported the notion of UN troops as long as it was under US command. It was Kofi Annan, after the UN bombing, who suggested a UN force under a US commander - it was the UN that climbed down.


We created a problem? Ask the Iraqis - ask them if they would choose to go back to before, when they didnt have the "problem".

	06-09-2003 01:28									#149
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Once again, we didnt create "this mess" Iraq was a "mess" for the entire period Saddam was in power. Hardly anyone in Iraq would go back to the situation as it was before the coalition went in. There are still plenty of problems. ...

You removed one big problem: Saddam

But you created at least 3 new big problems:
1) A damaged infrastructure, particularly water treatment, but plenty of other problems as well. And you lack the funds to fix it.
2) Anarchy, terrorism, and etnic conflicts, which you lack the manpower to keep at bay.
3) Massive unemployment, leading to poverty and more anarchy

	06-09-2003 01:30									#150
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quote: Now you are finally starting to understand why we not have a presence in the ME(the breeding ground for terrorists). If Somalia or near by regions fly and craft into buildings here in America, be ready for another war on the African continent. Our shot into Iraq is a warning for these other countries that we will not tolerate hits to America.

And the only reason they will do that is because we are ****ing around with them. If we leave them alone, our problems dissapear. The simple fact is that we dont have the support of the population, and no country has been held long when the people dont support the occupier. Invading wont solve the problem, it will only compound it.

And heres for lotm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3184683.stm