05-09-2003 19:10									#1
	Revolutionary Strategy Implications of C3C Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Apparantly Conquests includes this earth-shaking modification:

Tweaked Diplomacy
- Communication trading now comes with Printing Press
- Map trading now comes with Navigation


That changes everything. The ancient era will no longer be over in the BC period, which will in turn change the shape of the following era. It also makes the expansionist trait into a long-term cartographic monopoly.

	05-09-2003 19:21									#2
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The "cartographic monopoly" will chiefly be useful to determine whom to attack and when, don't you think? Will it really be helpful to a pacifist? And how helpful will it be period, as the AI constantly demands that troops be withdrawn?

I'm not sure I like this improvement. What's going to happen to mapmaking? That is one of the most important techs of the ancient era... with that greatly diminished, the whole ancient era strategy (for a lot of folks, and the AI) will have to change.

As for Printing Press allowing communication... well, it's not very realistic, but I like it. It will make ancient era wars all the more vigorous, as you won't be able to ask for alliances. This most likely means that more civs will live on into the medival and industrial eras. Very interesting!

I still think the most revolutionary change will simply be the change in traits, for all the civs. I'm a huge map fan, and I can't stand all the expanionists... the tendency of the various expanionists to find new techs first, and trade them amongst each other, often leaves the player behind in the ancient era... and I like having a tech lead! I greatly look forward to a reduced expanionist presence, although it will change the game greatly, won't it?

I think these changes are good. They are certainly revolutionary, or at least, major changes... I think we will see more civs survive to see the industrial age this way.

Hopefully seafaring will make actual overseas colonization possible... could be!

	05-09-2003 20:06									#3
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I have to agree that those diplomacy changes are significant.

You will need to focus more on exploration (at the expense of growth) to find more civs to trade with. This will be essential if you want to stay in the tech race at the higher difficulty levels. The expansionist trait will become even more powerful.

On the other hand, the tech pace will slow down, making the ancient age last longer. This will allow you to still attack your neighbors with ancient units without having to face pikemen in the BC.

For anyone wanting to get a head start in developing new C3C strategies, the two diplomacy changes can be made even now in PTW with the editor.

	05-09-2003 20:11									#4
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quote: Originally posted by alexman For anyone wanting to get a head start in developing new C3C strategies, the two diplomacy changes can be made even now in PTW with the editor.

Aha, very perceptive! Alexman is always a source of fine ideas and useful facts.

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm looking forward to this... It will give the "natural builders" more leeway to build, not to mention attain a tech lead or at least keep up in tech without trading every turn, and it will give the "natural early warmongers" - Celts, Aztecs, Persians, etc. - more time to conquer nearby civs before their UU is made kaput!

Very desirable all around... when I think about it, perhaps I should retract my earlier comment that civs will tend to last longer... the early warmongers might very well be able to wipe out quite a few civs before feudalism rolls around!

	05-09-2003 20:12									#5
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Contact with other civs might not be delayed all that much. Aren't there supposedly new techs which may enhance naval travel capabilities?

	05-09-2003 20:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Contact with other civs might not be delayed all that much. Aren't there supposedly new techs which may enhance naval travel capabilities?

I don't think anything official has been said about this. I sure hope the "naval scout" unit makes it in!

There is the curragh... but does anyone know exactly what the curragh does, what tech allows it to be built, etc?

	05-09-2003 22:03									#7
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I gasped with shock when I read the first post - then I realized that this is exactly what the game needs. How many times have I thought to myself: "What, Leonardo's workshop is being built in 250BC?! Cavalry by 400AD?!!" Imagine the tech race progressing much more slowly (like it did in the real world until the spread of mass communication), allowing the player to fully appreciate all the different kinds of units and not be overwhelmed with improvements to build. This could well be the coolest thing ever

	06-09-2003 00:04									#8
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If this is true, it will be a huge (okay, a pretty darn big) change, and will definitely increase the value of expansionists.

Even though the AI asks you to leave its territory frequently, with a scout (or other unit without A/D) you can say "Sure, I'll leave . . " and stay in the AI's territory for a long time. Without an early "No A/D unit," civs run the risk of not being able to make contact directly nor trade for contact with any number of other civs that are "blocked" by neutral / enemy territory. Sounds like it will demand a modest increase in early-game diplomacy skills for some players -- ROPs may be required to make / acquire contact before mapmaking.

In addition to alexman's notes, the expansionists will have a great headstart on long-range planning.

On the downside, I hope it doesn't (1) materially increase the frequency of AI units roaming through one's territory, (2) materially increase the number of nuisance "leave or declare war" wars in the first few thousand years, or (3) reward any further the tactic of selling world maps every turn (I don't have a guess as to how valuable a world map would be at Navigation without the opportunity to trade maps prior to such time).

Catt

	06-09-2003 00:12									#9
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Is ROP possible without establishing an embassy? Am I such a nimwit that I've never noticed that? Since I stopped building embassies early in the game (frequently) I've also largely stopped signed ROP agreements.

ROP agreements or no, the street runs both ways - if you can't get through the other AI's land, the AI can't get through yours. Without, of course, a war.

	06-09-2003 00:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Is ROP possible without establishing an embassy?

Nope.

As to the street running both ways, it really depends on whether or not you want to provoke the AI into war when they're wandering through your territory. At some of the higher levels the AI will declare war at the drop of a hat. You have to decide whether it's worth it to deny them the use of your land.

	06-09-2003 00:22									#11
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Back to the main topic though I definitely agree with Catt that the expansionist trait will get a boost out of this new change. Information about your enemy is key and without map trading the expansionists will have the best knowledge of their enemies. Expansionist might even come up to the par of industrious in importance with this new change. I might have to try the Americans again in Conquests.

	06-09-2003 00:26									#12
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We'll have to see what counterbalances the game design has - like seafaring to enhance discovery capacity.

However, with no early communications trading, maybe only sea-farers will enjoy the tech-cost and trading benefits for overseas civs - and likewise to a lesser extent for expansionists on land. ROPs will be now used for exploring and contact, and non-ROP trespass will become even more routine.

If sea-faring gives extra movement to certain units, Contact Monopoly (the 'Lighthouse' trait) could be more important than 'mapopoly'.


Source of C3C info :
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=95446

	06-09-2003 00:29									#13
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BTW, thanks for the info Cort Haus. I confess to not having followed info in the Conquests forum too closely.

	06-09-2003 00:36									#14
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Without ROP, without exchanging maps... good lord! The whole (typical) game is different! Not entirely realisitic, but I have a feeling a bit more balanced.

Perhaps we'll have the Mongols be the leaders in ancient-era technology a bit less often now?

	06-09-2003 00:39									#15
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You can still have ROP and embassies. It's only communications trading that they moved from Writing to Printing Press, AFAIK.

	06-09-2003 00:40									#16
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Rhothaerill, the Americans rock anyway as a builder civ (instant granaries = megarex). They're so strong I had to stop playing them and switch to the English for a challenge.

If sea-farers benefit from these changes, the English could benefit, but ironically they lose the expansionist trait. Seafaring looks more powerful than expansionist in the medium term though, if it allows more contacts and overseas rexing (built-in lighthouse). ROPs and galleys can solve the scout problem for non-expansionists.

	06-09-2003 00:42									#17
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quote: Originally posted by alexman You can still have ROP and embassies. It's only communications trading that they moved from Writing to Printing Press, AFAIK.

Ah!

So, actually, tech trading won't be utterly drastically alterted then. There'll be a few less middlemen, perhaps; both player and AIs will either end up lucky enough to learn many techs, or may get a short end of the stick.

Very interesting.

	06-09-2003 00:59									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Ah! So, actually, tech trading won't be utterly drastically alterted then. There'll be a few less middlemen, perhaps; both player and AIs will either end up lucky enough to learn many techs, or may get a short end of the stick. Very interesting.

No - tech trading, on certain maps, will be drastically altered. Even with an embassy and an ROP, you still actually have to go and contact a civ directly, rather than trade for contact, until Printing Press. If there are any landbridge blocking opportunities (one or two tile isthamus, for example), contact with a civ on the other side of the block will come only via sea and galleys (think: you're not commercial and have to research on your own through mapmaking without benefit of contact with 3 civs on the other side of your neighbor's isthamus city ) . And until you have contact with that civ, the very opportunity to trade techs with that civ is gone. Also don't forget that the trade cost of techs depends on how many civs that you have contact with know the tech in question.

As it is today, communications trading comes with Writing -- it has not been at all uncommon for me to buy / trade for communications before actually contacting a civ, even on Pangaea maps. Won't happen anymore.

Putting aside the comm trading and taking up map trading -- if I determine to go to war relatively early (not so early as an archer rush), both the then-present strength of a potential foe and the natural potential strength of a potential foe are considered. Trading maps in the ancient age allows me to determine which of the 4 neighbors has much fertile land within reach -- i.e. which neighbor needs to be hit early and hard. Think of having a bunch of neigbors on what appears to be a pangaea -- how long will it take to adequately explore all potnetial targets?

The change will at minimum force more player attention on individual exploration. But again, the land-bridge blocking (even coastal blocking) might be easily exploitable by the human.

Catt

	06-09-2003 01:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth So, actually, tech trading won't be utterly drastically alterted then.

I'd have thought so, as it's the contact that lowers the research cost and allows trading. So less ancient contact = slower tech race.

	06-09-2003 01:03									#20
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It'll all depend on the map, I suppose. At the very least, it'll put meaningful inter-civilization trading off until the late ancient age (that's my prediction, at least)

	06-09-2003 03:31									#21
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quite a long time ago i started a thread, how to slow down the tech race. i always found it irritating, that you needed a tech (writing) to exchange contacts, but complicated stuff like technologies went without any starting tech.

unfortunatly it's hardcoded that tech trading is always possible.

i guess they (firaxis) didn't want to disable this because it would make those civs which get to that tech earlier (e.g. if tech trading required writing, commercial civs would have that ability after 40 turns) even more powerful (as having writing first means you can trade it for half of the ancient age techs.

on topic,
i never really had problem getting contacts because i send out loads of scouts or warriors in all direction asap. and by the time you've got magnetism to travel the oceans to meet the civs on the other continent, there's no big difference, because someone surely has printing press (which btw makes democracy less waste of researching).
all in all, for peaceniks like me this change will give a bigger advantage.

and now hopefully the AI civs won't always go directly for map making (after writing), but challenge the human to literature ergo great library... a human exploit

	06-09-2003 03:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf and now hopefully the AI civs won't always go directly for map making (after writing)

Actually, map trading is not the reason why the AI loves Map Making. The ability to build galleys is exactly 17 times more valuable to the AI than the ability to trade maps. Add to that the Lighthouse, harbors, and the basic tech value, and the AI value for Map Making is virtually unchanged when you remove map trading.

	06-09-2003 13:25									#23
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Spot on, Alexman is right. The ability to build galleys and the Lighthouse are invalueable, and to get Harbours up and running to is also a boon to your growth as a Human player.

The Map Trading is not all that Important compared to these other things.

Furthermore the Great Library is only really useful if your lucky enough to build or take it from an AI on the higher levels. Libraries are the best reason to aqquire Literature.

	07-09-2003 14:58									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Spot on, Alexman is right. The ability to build galleys and the Lighthouse are invalueable, and to get Harbours up and running to is also a boon to your growth as a Human player. The Map Trading is not all that Important compared to these other things. Furthermore the Great Library is only really useful if your lucky enough to build or take it from an AI on the higher levels. Libraries are the best reason to aqquire Literature.

yes, i was talking about higher levels. at monarch and below it's not even for me too difficult to keep up with the AI.

harbors and ship building are nice, but not much worth if you havn't got seas nearby. also, harbor's building cost is 100 shields which takes basicly 100 turns in one of those remote corrupted colonies out at the shore next to a jungle... 100 turns is quite a long time and you also may want to build temples.

	07-09-2003 15:02									#25
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a question:
what do you think will change in unit values for non-expansionistic civs? up to standard sized maps it doesn't really matter, but above (i hardly ever play larger sizes)

1MP-units are too slow to cover big area.
chariots can't pass jungles and mountains, so they can be quite limited, especially on young geological worlds.
imho horsemen are even more important now. what do you think?

	07-09-2003 22:50									#26
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quote: Originally posted by David Murray I gasped with shock when I read the first post - then I realized that this is exactly what the game needs. How many times have I thought to myself: "What, Leonardo's workshop is being built in 250BC?! Cavalry by 400AD?!!" Imagine the tech race progressing much more slowly (like it did in the real world until the spread of mass communication), allowing the player to fully appreciate all the different kinds of units and not be overwhelmed with improvements to build. This could well be the coolest thing ever

I'm tired of eras/ages ending so soon, and units becoming obsolete. A lot of times I don't bother building knights because Cavalry is just a few turns away, and am usually at peace.

	08-09-2003 03:50									#27
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This mod would also nerf the Great Lib for civs without contacts.

	08-09-2003 03:54									#28
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I hope Firaxis tweaks the AI to compensate for these changes. If the AI "expects" to have contacts, etc. for tech trading to get ahead, then the human will get an advantage. One of the things that gets harder as the difficulty level ramps up is keeping up with the AI tech trading. If they can't do that it makes it easier for us.

	08-09-2003 19:21									#29
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Wow, this is a big change. Centrally located civs will have an advantage - especially a human civ. If you can block off your neighbors from contacting each other, you can broker tech, reaping the best of the deals. The AI will not be able to demand contact from you until PP (they'll probably just demand the tech, though).

While PP strikes me as a tad late for contact trading, it makes sense to slow down the pace in the early game, and I'm all for it.

Ancient/Early medieval warfare is going to be a bit more interesting too. I'm accostumed to launching my main assault with aforeknowledge of the enemy's map. Now I'll only have what I scout myself ahead of time.

-Arrian

	08-09-2003 19:47									#30
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I think what we'd all like is to have to play on Regent level because the AI played such a good game without cheats and bonuses. We all know that's not possible though. The human mind has had millions of years of development head start on the Civ 3 AI.

There has been a steady improvement in the AI since the first 3.0, and hopefully it will be stronger still, so that it's not necessary to rely on substantially cheaper research costs and broader trading windows to give the human a game.