10-09-2003 18:55									#61
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I think the problem will never be solved until the Palestinians themselves begin to go after the terrorists groups. I also think that this will never happen so long as terrorists continue to lead Palestine.

	10-09-2003 18:56									#62
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I can't wait to see Israel's reaction. And then the Palestinian reaction. And then Israel's reaction... I've given up all hope that anybody in the region has any sense whatsoever.

So far, in the last few weeks, Israel has only targeted Hamas and IJ. They have not attacked the PA or its security forces. They even seem to be avoiding attacking Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. They have not reoccupied anything. They have targeted Hamas leaders. They missed Sheik Yassin, apparently cause they used too small a bomb, in an attempt to avoid collateral damage. They have said they will judge the new Pal PM based on his actions.

All in all a very restrained, sensible response.

	10-09-2003 18:58									#63
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LOTM, you sound like US-bashers.
Like they can do it all, all at once.

	10-09-2003 18:59									#64
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Can somebody explain to me how the first attack was terrorist? All but one of the killed/injured were soldiers, and were legitimate military targets...

Only if theres a war going on? Is there a war going on? Between who and whom? Between Israel and Hamas? If so then doesnt Israel have the right to attack Hamas members at will? And dont they have the right to attack PA when it gives shelter to Hamas? Can a state be at war with a non-state actor? Is Israel at war with the PA? What are the implications for that? IF so dont they then have the right to capture Arafat?

	10-09-2003 19:01									#65
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quote: Can a state be at war with a non-state actor?

America is at war with Al-Qaeda, so yes.

	10-09-2003 19:04									#66
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet quote: Can a state be at war with a non-state actor? America is at war with Al-Qaeda, so yes.

Im not sure if thats technically true.

	10-09-2003 19:09									#67
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Somebody should tell Dubya that then. He's been banging on about a War on Terrorism for 2 years now. If it isn't actually possible to declare war on the world's biggest terrorist organisation then the whole thing is rather pointless, no?

	10-09-2003 19:12									#68
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You better batten down for a longer haul than 2 years, just like the man said from the very start.

	10-09-2003 19:24									#69
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Somebody should tell Dubya that then. He's been banging on about a War on Terrorism for 2 years now. If it isn't actually possible to declare war on the world's biggest terrorist organisation then the whole thing is rather pointless, no?

Its a metaphor, like the war on drugs ("marijuana claimed today that being confiscated and destroyed violated its rights as a belligerent under the Geneva Convention") not a technical state of war, I believe.

	10-09-2003 19:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet quote: Can a state be at war with a non-state actor? America is at war with Al-Qaeda, so yes.

Can a state be at war with a non-state actor, and not be at war with a state that harbors them? The US went to war with Afghanistan. All other states CLAIM to arrest any AQ members they find within their borders (whether thats precisely true or not) PA explicitly does NOT arrest Hamas members. What are the PA's obligations, if this is analogous to the war on Al Qaeeda? By failing to arrest Hamas leaders, are they not in the same situation legally as the Taliban when they failed to arrest Bin Laden?

	10-09-2003 19:30									#71
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The problem with saying that you are at war would I would have thought give those who fight in the war protection unedr the Geneva convention. Irish Americans for years banged on about the conditions those plucky IRA boys were kept in

	10-09-2003 19:50									#72
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quote: Wow, Zylka has become a supporter of the state of Israel. It is amazing what love can do.

Yeah, ain't love grand.


Imagine, just get a Palestinian and a Jew together, would they not press for peace?

	10-09-2003 20:04									#73
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just till the breakup...

	10-09-2003 20:05									#74
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If they had decent beer in Israel, noone would care about fighting anymore. And they would look cool too

Attachment: norrlandsguld.jpg
This has been downloaded 69 time(s).

	10-09-2003 20:12									#75
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I hope he wont apply to hamas if she dumbs him.


edit: argh daniel was faster

	10-09-2003 20:27									#76
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Actually the IDF has tried on numerous occasions to arrest them. They have a nasty tendency to kill IDF when that happens though. Now if the PA would seriously begin to arrest these people, then IDF wouldnt have to kill them.

I am sorry, but when i hear what Israeli does to try to get at Hamas militants, i get furious. for example, this latest attempt: they bombed the guys house: he lived, his son was killed, his wife and daughter are in serious condition in the hospital... That is a horrid mockery of justice. There also was that event (i don;t know if it was doen once or twice), were Hamas militants were hiding out in a residential building: so the Israeli solution: blow the building up: hell, that dozens of families become homeless, who give s a rats ass.....

There have been dozens of counterinsurgency camapaings waged by dmeocratic governments this last century, some of them, like the war in Algeria, far bloodier than this whole sorry mess: and yet, I can;t think of any dmeocratic gov. taking steps like these: the French certainly tortured people and executed them without trials, but if they wanted to get said individual, they went ater them, not thought, "hell, lets low them up in their house, so their familuy gets killled..too bad, its the militant's fault if their kid gets illed. I mean, we decided to kill ther guy in way that we know will hurt ohter, but we couldn;t care less..they should realize we are willing to kill any local innocent to get them.." Sprry, but I find that mode of thinking little better than that mode of thinking which allows suicide bombings.

And then I try to think, what mindset allows for this: Yes, if Israeli tries to arrets these guys, IDF troops might die. But they knew they might die by joining the military: their job is to do their mission, and the political eladers that send them have a job to do and should in theory follow laws. As I have said, I can think of no other dmeocratic state that does or did things like that: they certainly undertook missions in which men were killed tyring to secure prisoners. So what then is the difference? Well, that in general these democratic states felt that their mission was not only to save themselves, but the others, from these individuals. They were fighting for the good of ther own, and the other people. This entiment is NOT there in the mid-east. If 20 Palestiians families go homeless to get two Hamas guys, the Irsaleic ould care less: removing the threat to Israelis is the only thing they care about..the suffereing of Pals is secondary most of the time. (and anyone who will argue about the "small bomb and trying to minimize civlian casualties last time...minimize, not avoid first of all, and if a 500 lb bombs hits a busy room, that minimizes nothing, so the sentiemnt is haf-fet at best). S the Irsaleis are trying to wage an insurgency with no regard for the local population, which sets them apart from all these other counterinsurgency campaings, and exactly why they will fail as they have failed since 1987, and it is about time the foreign community came in itself and solved this problem for the two sides, even if they do not want it solved. They are not, nor will they be at a level to solve it in a long time...

Yes, Hamas and IJ need to go, and so des the occupation regime, so lets wipe it all out at once, even if the two sides might dsagree, well, they aren't caable of doing it themselves.

	10-09-2003 20:51									#77
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uh. The French were trying to retain control of algeria. The Israelis are NOT trying to retain control of most of the territories. The palestinians are NOT their citizens. Their obligation IS to their own citizens. They do not patrol the streets of Gaza - thats territory under Pal control.


Oh, and BTW, there have been several instances where to deal with such problems, counter insurgency forces have simply rounded up and deported locals from particular locations. The UK did that against the Boers - the US essentially did that in parts of Viet Nam. Do you really want the Israelis to do that? The French also used torture extensively in Algeria.

And yes they sacrifice IDF to save civilian lives - they did so in Jenin. But they do so within reasonable limits. And in places where they were occupying on the ground.

Hamas as a strategy hides in civilian areas, and tries to draw Israel in so they can ambush Israeli troops - Israel is under no obligation to respond just as Hamas wants them to. Israel responds with air strikes.

The US has used air strikes instead of ground troops on numerous occasions - at far greater cost to civilians than has occured in Palestine. Why is it different cause this is a "counter insurgency"

	10-09-2003 20:53									#78
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, Hamas and IJ need to go, and so des the occupation regime, so lets wipe it all out at once, even if the two sides might dsagree, well, they aren't caable of doing it themselves.

Actually the two sides had a process leading to precisely such an agreement, but it was undercut by Arafat and, indirectly, by EU states that continued to deal with Arafat.

	10-09-2003 21:02									#79
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"Israel has killed 13 Hamas members and six bystanders in nine airstrikes since an Aug. 19 "

	10-09-2003 21:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Actually the two sides had a process leading to precisely such an agreement, but it was undercut by Arafat and, indirectly, by EU states that continued to deal with Arafat.

Please, cut the canard. Arafat was givn the authority to decide yes or no. This thing has been going on for more than tw years, and only NOW does israel start going after Hamas, after years of attacking the PA and destroying most of their ability to hit Hamas, why?

The fact is that under Barak settlemets continued to grow, and restrictions did not ease. It is questionable at best that Israelis would have chosen anything agreed to in Camp David, or that the alestiains would have either. So we can move beyond this absurd "it's all arafat's fault" line.

	10-09-2003 21:07									#81
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark "Israel has killed 13 Hamas members and six bystanders in nine airstrikes since an Aug. 19 "

Does that make Israel 69% the champions of justice and 31% ruthless murderers then?

That's not such a bad proportion really. As long as we've got the ratios worked out then everyone knows where they stand.

	10-09-2003 21:07									#82
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Gepap: To be fair Khaled Zahar, Mahmoud Zahar's 20 year old son, was a member of Hamas and an Islamic terrorist. It's right this bastard should be killed.

	10-09-2003 21:11									#83
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Does that make Israel 69% the champions of justice and 31% ruthless murderers then? That's not such a bad proportion really. As long as we've got the ratios worked out then everyone knows where they stand.

War is messy amd there is always collateral damage no matter what efforts you take to prevent it. The Israelis, like most modern nations do go to great lengths to prevent collateral damage but at the end of the day when terrorist organizations hide amoung civilians and the legal authorities (I.E. the PA) refuse to arrest, detain, or even question members of terrorist groups then the party under attack really has no choice but to take military action.

	10-09-2003 21:14									#84
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark uh. The French were trying to retain control of algeria. The Israelis are NOT trying to retain control of most of the territories. The palestinians are NOT their citizens. Their obligation IS to their own citizens. They do not patrol the streets of Gaza - thats territory under Pal control.

Yes, the Palestinians are not citizens of anywhere actually, thanks to the Israelis. Most Palestinains live under israeli military control again, and yet all the suicide bombers coem from those areas. If Israel wants, let it return to being the military occupier of Gaza as well: then they can return to being responsible for the well being of the locals as well..but wait, you guys want security control but not the job of caring for the locals like you had back in '92? How cheap.

quote: Oh, and BTW, there have been several instances where to deal with such problems, counter insurgency forces have simply rounded up and deported locals from particular locations. The UK did that against the Boers - the US essentially did that in parts of Viet Nam. Do you really want the Israelis to do that? The French also used torture extensively in Algeria.

They already have tried, but can;t due to space considerations. Yes, i mentioned the French suing torture in Algeria.

quote: And yes they sacrifice IDF to save civilian lives - they did so in Jenin. But they do so within reasonable limits. And in places where they were occupying on the ground. Hamas as a strategy hides in civilian areas, and tries to draw Israel in so they can ambush Israeli troops - Israel is under no obligation to respond just as Hamas wants them to. Israel responds with air strikes.

"hide in civilians areas"? How is being IN YOUR HOUSE WITH YOUR FAMILY hidding? Israel has a responsibility not to take actions it knows have a high probability of killing innocent individuals.

quote: The US has used air strikes instead of ground troops on numerous occasions - at far greater cost to civilians than has occured in Palestine. Why is it different cause this is a "counter insurgency"

At the time, troops were trying to secure an area and came under heavy fire, at which time they call in airsrikes to subdue resistance being given. Point me to the resistance being given here? When we had good info on Saddam Hussien's SONS being somewhere, did the US bring in airplanes to simply bomb the building and flatten it? No, they tried 2 times o sotrm it, taking fire, and then they attacked the areas which were giving them resistance. So the analogy is wrong.

	10-09-2003 21:15									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Gepap: To be fair Khaled Zahar, Mahmoud Zahar's 20 year old son, was a member of Hamas and an Islamic terrorist. It's right this bastard should be killed.

hmm, so as long as the duaghter and wife don;t die, success!

	10-09-2003 21:25									#86
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quote: Originally posted by GePap At the time, troops were trying to secure an area and came under heavy fire, at which time they call in airsrikes to subdue resistance being given.

Kosovo - 1999
Afghanistan and Sudan - 1998
Iraq - 1998.
Iraq - 1991
Libya - 1986(?)

	10-09-2003 21:29									#87
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, the Palestinians are not citizens of anywhere actually, thanks to the Israelis. Most Palestinains live under israeli military control again, and yet all the suicide bombers coem from those areas. [/q] But all the leaders come from Gaza. [q] When we had good info on Saddam Hussien's SONS being somewhere, did the US bring in airplanes to simply bomb the building and flatten it? No, they tried 2 times o sotrm it, taking fire, and then they attacked the areas which were giving them resistance. So the analogy is wrong.

Yeah, we were occupying Mosul at the time. We certainly tried to take Saddam out twice from the air, and failed both times. And at least the second time cause seems to have caused civilian casualties.

	10-09-2003 21:31									#88
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It always seems to come down to certain people demanding Israel be held to impossible standards; certainly standards which are much higher then the rest of the world.

	10-09-2003 21:32									#89
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Does that make Israel 69% the champions of justice and 31% ruthless murderers then? That's not such a bad proportion really. As long as we've got the ratios worked out then everyone knows where they stand.

It makes them simply folks trying to defend themselves, by attacking terrorists. Who try to balance the success of the mission, the safety of their own troops, and collateral damage. Who have not done a perfect job, who have done a reasonably good job under the circumstances. Certainly if they didnt care at all about minimizing civilian casualties, they wouldnt have achieved this ratio.

	10-09-2003 21:34									#90
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Please, cut the canard. Arafat was givn the authority to decide yes or no. This thing has been going on for more than tw years, and only NOW does israel start going after Hamas, after years of attacking the PA and destroying most of their ability to hit Hamas, why?

Because people like you keep saying that murdering 70 year olds - even if they're cold blooded murderers - would inflame the Arab Street(tm).

We could say the same thing about the US government and Bin Laden and Al Qaeda before 9/11 - it wasn't our priority - a point is reached when too much is too much.