11-09-2003 01:21									#121
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I bet Israel's last rough day before this one was . . .









the day before that one.

	11-09-2003 01:27									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Gepap: To be fair Khaled Zahar, Mahmoud Zahar's 20 year old son, was a member of Hamas and an Islamic terrorist. It's right this bastard should be killed.

Oerdin, thats crap logic and you know it.

	11-09-2003 01:30									#123
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All I said was to be fair two fo the people killed were members of a terrorist organization. That means 50% of the people killed were terrorists and not the 25% which has been claimed in this thread.

	11-09-2003 01:33									#124
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara At least one in 1873 at Pine Ridge.

And 1873 is after 1890?

BTW show how they are being confined to reservations or ghettos. Their territories will have access to Jordan and Egypt plus they've been offered a land corridor connecting the west bank and gaza. The only thing the wall will do is protect innocent people from the blood thirsty murders who live on the other side.

	11-09-2003 01:38									#125
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heres an interesting commentary in the Jerusalem Post

'So what does this mean? There is no shortcut. Arafat has to go through a period of incremental weakening. The problem for Israel is that we are looking at the situation from a day-to-day perspective. Nobody has the patience to wait for Arafat to get weak enough to give way or allow another leadership. It is an inevitable process, but there is no revolutionary jump where Arafat will become a nobody and a Palestinian government will take over.

Arafat will be weakened over a long time. He is not only getting older and less capable, he is losing power by the very fact that Israel and the United States and the European Union are keeping pressure on him to give away more leadership to others who are capable of cooperating with Israel.

Much of this debate is affected by our over-estimation of the alternative leadership. It is as if once Arafat disappears, the other government will become "lovers of Zion." We forget that we are still dealing with people for whom political survival is highly dependent on legitimacy from their own people won by showing they can't be more flexible than Arafat.

They have no illusions that Israel would give them what they want without exerting pressure, which almost necessarily leads to the use of violence. They see the tensions inside Israeli society with most people wanting separation. But the process of settlement-building and expansion and other projects since 1993 is not something that would encourage them to be firmer against violent organizations unless there will be a new balance.

Even if we want to believe that an alternative to Arafat would be much better for Israel, we have to take into consideration it will never happen unless this leadership obtains substantial rewards from Israel or be able to show their people that it would be worth taking another path.

Any new leadership needs legitimacy and it would need to be supported by the more organized groups, first and foremost, by Fatah. They can't come to Hamas and give them an ultimatum to disarm unless they can show that this armed potential is less necessary [than before].

We have to make clear to the Palestinians that we will not allow terror or violence, but at the same time we have to give them the light at the end of the tunnel and show them there is a reward, otherwise there is nothing but despair and violence.

Dr. Avraham Sela is chairman of the department of international relations at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and author of Palestinian Hamas: Vision, Violence and Coexistence. '

	11-09-2003 01:56									#126
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In the last 30 years: Leaders of Israel:

Golda Meir - incompetent: nearly had Israel beaten.
Yitzhak Rabin
Menachem Begin - war criminal
Yitzhak Shamir - wasn't he a thief?
Shimon Peres - lame duck
Yitzhak Shamir (again) - thief
Yitzhak Rabin(again)
Bibi Netanyahu - incompetent: ruined the peace protest
Ehud Barak - a good man in a bad situation
Ariel Sharon - war criminal

Leaders of the Palestinians:

Yasser Arafat. - terrorist, freedom fighter: corrupt

quote: Time to try something new?

Yeah, the Palestinians only made one mistake. Israel has managed to produce only one good leader in the last 30 years.

	11-09-2003 01:59									#127
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Fair and balanced assessment of Israeli leaders you made there, Agathon.



-Arrian

	11-09-2003 02:05									#128
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Agathon: With such a one sided view are you sure your not planning on working for Fox News?

	11-09-2003 02:06									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The only thing the wall will do is protect innocent people from the blood thirsty murders who live on the other side.

So now the wall is meant to protect the Palestinians?

	11-09-2003 02:07									#130
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Beat you to it, Oerdin.

	11-09-2003 02:11									#131
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arrian, watch out for litigation from fox. oh, wait, you support their viepoint, nevermind.

	11-09-2003 02:15									#132
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Excuse me? I support Fox? Where the **** did you get that idea?

I loathe Fox, MRT. That doesn't mean I can't use their silly slogan in a joke.

-Arrian

	11-09-2003 02:17									#133
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its their trademark slogan. expect to be served.

	11-09-2003 02:26									#134
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Yeah, but I'm not trying to sell a book by using it. There is a difference.

-Arrian

	11-09-2003 02:32									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Agathon: With such a one sided view are you sure your not planning on working for Fox News?

What's one sided about it?

Most of the Israeli leaders have been less than inspiring with Begin and Sharon the worst of the bunch and Arafat is a corrupt lunatic.

My position of "a plague on both your houses" is becoming more popular anyway.

	11-09-2003 02:52									#136
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark It makes there lives better cause they dont have israeli soldiers patrolling their cities and running their daily lives. Seems to me that when the Israelis went back in to their cities, they considered this a bad thing, and they are again asking the Israelis to leave. Why build the roads - cause with the IDF no longer patrolling the villages ( in area A) , the settlers didnt want to have to drive through them - not surprising, considering that the villagers have a tendency to throw stones and shoot bullets at the settlers vehicles (and yes, i know that on occasion settlers have done the same) And why would the Pals want to use those roads - the existing road system linked their towns and villages - and while they were still subject to closures (where the roads went through areas b or C) that was no worse than before.

The point was that as the byroads grew in number and grew to intersect palestinians roads more and more traveling between Palestinian vilages, which is something that most of them needed to do regualry, became an incredibe hassle. The number of checkpoints mushroomed. If anything, people had less freedom to move with all these checkpoimts than before the Oslo agreements. this not only increase resentemnt, but stiffled trade.

	11-09-2003 03:21									#137
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe we could bury him alive with the war criminal Sharon.

would that be before or after you , ...........

	11-09-2003 03:22									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Golda Meir - incompetent: nearly had Israel beaten. Yitzhak Rabin Menachem Begin - war criminal Yitzhak Shamir - wasn't he a thief? Shimon Peres - lame duck Yitzhak Shamir (again) - thief Yitzhak Rabin(again) Bibi Netanyahu - incompetent: ruined the peace protest Ehud Barak - a good man in a bad situation Ariel Sharon - war criminal Leaders of the Palestinians: Yasser Arafat. - terrorist, freedom fighter: corrupt Yeah, the Palestinians only made one mistake. Israel has managed to produce only one good leader in the last 30 years.

you did forget to include your own name , ..........

	11-09-2003 04:09									#139
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quote: Can somebody explain to me how the first attack was terrorist? All but one of the killed/injured were soldiers, and were legitimate military targets...

It would be a case of guerilla, if the target was clearly a military base and soldiers.

But Hamas is known to target civilians, and the bus stop is a civilian installation. Yes, it does also service soldiers. But the same logic could be applied to each terract. Gnu has already claimed that targetting cafes and clubs is alright because soldiers probably hang out there.

But unlike the terrorists, Israeli soldiers wear uniforms, have their own bases and installations. So when coming to pick a military non-civilian target, according to rules of war, the palestinains have a wide array of choises.

The fact that they prefer to target clearly civilian servies (cafes, clubs, buses) exposes them as terrorists and not guerilla warriors.

	11-09-2003 04:18									#140
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Only if theres a war going on? Is there a war going on? Between who and whom? Between Israel and Hamas? If so then doesnt Israel have the right to attack Hamas members at will? And dont they have the right to attack PA when it gives shelter to Hamas? Can a state be at war with a non-state actor? Is Israel at war with the PA? What are the implications for that? IF so dont they then have the right to capture Arafat?

You know, this is funny. The justification for Israel's strikes in the West Bank is that they're at war with X terrorist orgs, but now they're not at war with Israel?

I always thought that a state of war was a symmetric relation...

	11-09-2003 04:20									#141
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quote: You know, this is funny. The justification for Israel's strikes in the West Bank is that they're at war with X terrorist orgs, but now they're not at war with Israel? I always thought that a state of war was a symmetric relation...

Personally, I think that LOTM is wrong on this.

I do agree that there is a war going on.

See my reply above.

	11-09-2003 04:25									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: Can somebody explain to me how the first attack was terrorist? All but one of the killed/injured were soldiers, and were legitimate military targets... It would be a case of guerilla, if the target was clearly a military base and soldiers. But Hamas is known to target civilians, and the bus stop is a civilian installation. Yes, it does also service soldiers. But the same logic could be applied to each terract. Gnu has already claimed that targetting cafes and clubs is alright because soldiers probably hang out there. But unlike the terrorists, Israeli soldiers wear uniforms, have their own bases and installations. So when coming to pick a military non-civilian target, according to rules of war, the palestinains have a wide array of choises. The fact that they prefer to target clearly civilian servies (cafes, clubs, buses) exposes them as terrorists and not guerilla warriors.

Targetting a group of soldiers in a nightclub is equivalent, in my mind, to targetting a particular vehicle containing militants on a streetcorner. Targetting the club itself just because soldiers occasionally hang out there (but the population is not almost wholly military) is of course, wrong (more wrong than fighting a stupid war is per se).

But your logic falls down in drawing a conclusion wrt a single act based on probabilities from previous acts.

If I am a notable bank robber, and walk into a bank to deposit a cheque then you cannot say I committed another bank robbery.

The organisation utilises terrorist modes of attack without compunction, but this particular attack appears to be non-terrorist. And yes, I wish that the Palestinians would restrict themselves to killing soldiers. It would put them on the moral high ground, which the current strategy does not.

	11-09-2003 04:47									#143
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quote: Targetting a group of soldiers in a nightclub is equivalent, in my mind, to targetting a particular vehicle containing militants on a streetcorner.

I disagree.

IDF has a wide range of facilities and is open to legitimate targetting.

Hamas - are not. Hamas, as an illegal combatant organization, has no specific military only facilities, or recongisable combat gear. As such, when Israel comes to choose Hamas targets, it has not "real" non-dual targets, but only targets that are both civilian (cars, private houses) that double as C&C centers, HQs, laboratories, barracks, transportation vehicles and so on.

quote: But your logic falls down in drawing a conclusion wrt a single act based on probabilities from previous acts.

It wasn't my point at all. I was using it as a minor point to establish a pattern of behaviour in Hamas, as "character evidence".

My point was, that unlike Hamas, the IDF has recognizable bases, uniforms, centers of comand, barracks and so forth.
And as such, if Hamas are to choose a 'legitimate' (non-civilian) target, they have more than plenty to choose from.

However, they specifically chose a civilian target. A bus stop. It is not a designated military bus or truck, but a civilian utilitiy that soldiers often employ. If they were to seek a military target - they would have to target a military bus or truck. And such exist.

By the same logic, they could have targetted a train station, and claim that many soldiers take the train to their bases (or back home).

However this would be misleading, since the bus stop, like the train station, is not clearly a military installation but is very clearly a designated civilian installation. And military installations are not at all lacking.

Thereby, the Hamas have knowingly targetted a civil installation, ignoring designated military targets.

Soldiers in a civilian bus station, just like soldiers in a train, or on a street or in a club, are a coincidence. They do not make the civilian service they use, a "military target".

This is not true with regards to Hamas though, for the reason I mentioned earlier. They specifically and intentionally lack designated military targets. They intentionally use only double-use facilities. They do this in an attempt to disguise and make their destruction more difficult.

This is against warfare conventions, and according to same conventions, this attempt to duisguise within civilian population, in an exceptional way, makes their immediate sorrounding a legitimate military target.

	11-09-2003 15:30									#144
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Siro

Arafat

	11-09-2003 16:13									#145
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Very intelligent conversation here.

I still believe the central question is how does one get the PA to itself eliminate Hamas, IJ and other terrorist groups. There seem to be three views:

1) appeasement of the PA by making concessions;
2) weaken Arafat so that more cooperative leadership can get real power - but the new leadership would need concessions to move against Hamas, etc. So this is the same as 1)
3) keep up the military pressure against Hamas, IJ, etc. and make no concessions to PA until they themselves begin to cooperate and begin active suppression of terrorism. Under this scenario, the PA itself will force Arafat to comply or force him to leave making the weakening of Arafat by Israel irrelevant.

I suggest that the only reasonable course of action is 3). At some point the average Palestinian will become convinced that they have no choice but to stop terrorism if they are to have any hope for a better future. At that point, the terrorists will no longer be heroes to the average Palestinian.

	11-09-2003 16:22									#146
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Does nobody(who wants to send in the tanks) think that maybe the Palestinians aren't well treated by the Israelis and this might just have something to do with people blowing themselves up.

	11-09-2003 17:09									#147
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I'm sorry if I interrupted the intellectual flow herein, Ned.

	11-09-2003 18:49									#148
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Arafat just phoned me, says he's fine.

	11-09-2003 19:28									#149
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He circumcised too?

	11-09-2003 19:59									#150
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The weekend is going to be interesting.