14-09-2003 00:49									#1
	Public Opinion: Map Making to GCA? Put an end to popups!

With the war about 5 turns away, much debate has arisen lately on whether or not we sell map making to GCA before the coming war. The discussion about that issue can be found here .

Summary
Pros:
-GWT may sell them MM upon contact. So we might as well get something for it.
-Helps to put their fears at ease since we re-established trading just like we promised.

Cons:
-Possibility of a backdoor galley attack during our offensive.

Note
This really isn't official in any sense, just trying to gauge what public opinion is on this issue and from there, we can use this decision as a blueprint.

	14-09-2003 01:05									#2
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Well, if they were AI I'd say:

Yhe answer depends on weather or not we can get a good deal with receiving gold only (or gold + WM if we don't already have it) If so, let's go for it.
But if their only willing to buy on a GPT (or luxary) basis, no.

Now Considering that they are a human player, we also need to know if trying to sell them a tech on a cash now basis would cause them to get suspecious and switch productions to military units. If it would, we need to know which would be less suspecious, not offering to sell MM at all or offering to sell but only a all cash for the deal now basis.

	14-09-2003 03:17									#3
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Actually, the best way to "settle them down" would be to do it as a timed deal, maybe with both Luxes and GPT. But then, in 4 turns, we would be breaking that deal.

If we don't want to worry about a rep hit, especially if no one on the other contenent finds out, then we should do a mix of Lux, GPT and Gold up front.

E_T

	14-09-2003 03:23									#4
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ET: The other continent will find out. In this game, Dead Civs do tell tales.


No to luxuries or gpt, no reason to needlessly harm our rep.

Wether to trade at all: Depends on the offer. We shouldn't just give it to them, but if they can offer us enough to make it worthwhile, then there shouldn't be any harm in the trade just before the war.

	14-09-2003 03:31									#5
	Got spare money?

How would breaking a gpt or lux deal hurt our reputation? For the AI it would, but with humans WE'RE the one that's losing gold and lux use by declaring war.

	14-09-2003 04:36									#6
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It depends what we would get for it I think...

	14-09-2003 07:11									#7
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Good point that we would just be hurting ourselves by declaring war while we are getting the gpt or lux.

	14-09-2003 12:42									#8
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Yes; For the reasons I stated in the other thread about this.

Good idea to set up a poll WB, thanks.

	14-09-2003 18:58									#9
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It is a good move to sell a tech or two to a civ that is doomed to not have the ability to use it to their advantage before we come rolling in. It is not such a trivial decision if it is a tech that could potentially be used against us, especially where we are leaving ourselves so vulnerable at home!

Be very very careful when voting, as there is a risk in giving GCA Galleys. I say this as we are doing just that, for what will end up as a pittance. It is a small chance type of risk, but when we are committing so totally to something we want the situation as controlled as we can make it.

We recently threatened GCA with action if they pushed further against CFC, and that has undoubtedly caused them to worry about how strong we are, whilst they are fighting a war away from their lands. They have twigged at least partly to us, and the only reason we are going ahead with the war is that we believe we have such an overwhelming force. They are withdrawing troops to protect themselves, and the battles will be tough enough because of it. Let us not give them the chance to ferry some of those troops to cause us damage, it is so much easier to pin them down in front of us. We want them to have their forces where we can deal with them, and the only place that is is on land. As soon as the waves become a medium for them we are risking a lot. In the case we give them MM, how can we protect against the possibility? We are not diverting resources to build Galleys to defend our shores, nor are those units we build staying behind to protect our so productive cities.

GCA has an embassy, and may have investigated to see that our cities are undefended. It will have been easy to conclude that our forces are elsewhere, and since our cities are so empty, they can only be massed for a potential attack. How stupid would they be if they didn't give over to the idea of castrating us with a Galley or two of troops whilst our troops are away from home? Can we really be that certain we will have such overwhelming success as to prevent them from doing this? Even if we have taken some of their cities, it would still be the best option to sail up and attack where the enemy is weakest, and either end the war or cause considerable headaches for the invaders. A strength of ours is that we know we do not need the troops at home, but our strength can be used against us if we assume GCA will not be able to do something we are giving them the very tools for.

This could be very dangerous, and for what will doubtless be a small payoff. What need does GCA have for gold? How do we know they have as much as 100 gold? They should be going for Feudalism or Monarchy/Republic with all their might, as gold is useless to them without. We will not get much for MapMaking, and it is gold we will appropriate anyway from their cities - they can't spend it elsewhere except on tech. We need some upgrades slightly earlier than planned far less than we need them to have Galleys. Why not consider the other option - preventing GCA getting Galleys at all by making a no-trade pact with GWT? It should be possible, and we are assuring our position.

Just think about what there is to gain, what there is at risk, and how certain you are of what that gain will be. We would never sell MM for as little as a hundred gold to a civ that wasn't going to get it off another civ imminently anyway in any other circumstance. Why now, when that little gold of theirs will be ours when we take their cities anyway, and benefits us in the meantime so little?

	14-09-2003 19:27									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I wasn’t sure what to vote, but that post convinced me to vote NO It looks like the No side is a lost cause, though Perhaps we can demand so much for Map Making it makes them lose interest?

By the way, is the “Free Smileys” pop-up place legit? If they have a smiley with the Canadian flag behind it I would be interested

	14-09-2003 20:04									#11
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OK - MWIA and nye are right. I vote NO.

	14-09-2003 20:41									#12
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Sold me on the No vote too MWIA.

	14-09-2003 21:36									#13
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MWIA sold me, too. We're going to be getting the gold anyway, unless they pull a France and somehow buy alliances against us, or pull a Lux and abandon all their cities.

Besides, the income from our new holdings will make up for the short-term loss of not making this deal. (Eventually. In the short term, they're going to be corrupt as hell until the FP gets online, and even then won't be of all that much help without some courthouses...)

	14-09-2003 21:40									#14
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Excellent post MrWIA! It's a neat thing to see one post completely turn around an entire thread, no matter how much you agree or disagree

	14-09-2003 23:00									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Although obviously it is not possible to do so, I would like to withdraw my "yes" vote into the "no" column. I was thinking we would demand a sizable sum for Mapmaking - the number of upgrades we deprive them of for 100 gold is trivial.

Alternatively, we could always investigate THEM and find out EXACTLY how much money they have- pick a city we plan to hit anyhow, and if they have a sizable amount of "cut the iron, build and then upgrade" cash, then we can make the mapmaking offer.

We're 5 turns out, right? Four turns out is early, but not unreasonably early to make our city investigation. Do it then and we can at least have the gold information to assess the situation with.

We could also open talks over Mapmaking to see what they'd offer - there's no reason we have to close those talks with a deal.

Perhaps not actually make the trade - but feel them out all the same.

	14-09-2003 23:24									#16
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No, for reasons I've expressed earlier.

	14-09-2003 23:30									#17
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I voted yes, but of course that means try to sell it to them for a substantial price. Of course we aren't just going to give it to them for nothing

MWIA - I agree with much of your post besides the part about a small payoff. We just don't sell it to them if they're not going to be able to pay, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't propose it. We might get a large payoff.

	14-09-2003 23:49									#18
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There are a few reasons to sell MM to GCA:

1. Getting the gold from GCA so that we can perform upgrades sooner and to take away gold from GCA so that they cannot. Plus two upgrades for us, minus 2 upgrades for them equal 4 units in our favor.

2. It prevents GWT from benefiting from the sale of MM. Make no mistake, GWT will sell it to GCA. Why wait for that to happen. No matter what the amount of gold we can get from GCA it will be better than GWT getting it.

3. It puts GCA at ease and improves our relations with them. This false sense of security makes it more likely for them to build workers/settlers/improvements versus military units.



Add all of that to the fact that GCA will not, IMO, be able to amass any sort of Navy to counter against us in the time that we will be assaulting them. Our assault will be pretty swift. It not very far to Catchopolis from Random Outpost.

	15-09-2003 02:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree 3. It puts GCA at ease and improves our relations with them. This false sense of security makes it more likely for them to build workers/settlers/improvements versus military units.

The rest of your argument has some weight, but this one is baloney. GCA seems fully convinced that we are about to attack them and they are right. I highly doubt we're going to dupe them into believing we are not going to attack by selling them MM nor do I believe that would be a worthwhile goal even if we could do it.

That said, the rest of your argument has at least some merit.

	15-09-2003 03:43									#20
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If we start to negotiate sale terms with them, instead of being silent, it just might get them to be a bit more at ease.

Maybe we should send them MM this turn and let them know, via our diplomats, what we are looking to get. If anything, we can continue to refuse their offer until the last full turn of peace.

Oh, I did vote no.

E_T

	15-09-2003 04:50									#21
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I certainly agree, and always have, that keeping in contact with all other teams (including GCA), and at least talking about possible trades is a good thing to do. The actuality of agreeing to the trade itself is a different matter for me. With incredible luck we may learn something from GCA that we might not normally have before the war. And if there is no commitment, there is not really any risk, provided we are polite enough in our dealings.

	15-09-2003 21:53									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The rest of your argument has some weight, but this one is baloney. GCA seems fully convinced that we are about to attack them and they are right. I highly doubt we're going to dupe them into believing we are not going to attack by selling them MM nor do I believe that would be a worthwhile goal even if we could do it. That said, the rest of your argument has at least some merit.

I don't think it would have the effect of having them build all non-military units, but maybe if they were on the edge of building a settler/worker or a Swordsmen, then they may choose the settler/worker instead. Lucky was only mostly joking when he asked MZ how many turns till we attack them.

I think we have convinced them earlier in the game that we are and want to be peaceful builders in the game. Carthage is wonderful for that. Though they may have some lingering fears about us, and in a game that relies so heavily on war, that is only normal. Does GCA think that we will never attack anyone? No. Can we make them fell temporaily safe? Yes, I think so. We have in the past...thanks to our FAM.

	15-09-2003 22:00									#23
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That's all fine and dandy until you consider that we sent them a letter demanding they go to peace or else we'd drive them into the dirt.

	15-09-2003 22:32									#24
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It depends on how much Gold (lump sum) GCA is willing to cough up for it.

For around 100 Gold, I would say "no". Anything 200 and above and the question becomes a lot more interesting.

I seriously doubt GCA will mount a threatening counter-attack on us with Galleys. If we do sell them Map Making, the most we can expect is an AI type "annoyance" run at us. They will be too busy with our forces to spare 30 Shields. This said, if the war goes badly for us, the threat of naval invasions from them increases. So I guess it also depends on how convincingly we think we're going to dispose of GCA.


Dominae

	15-09-2003 22:40									#25
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I highly doubt we'd be able to get more than 100 gold for it.

	15-09-2003 22:51									#26
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Well, the FAM could try and see what happens. No harm done in talking. To the contrary, as mentioned by some others, the act of talking to them could do us some good.

	16-09-2003 00:12									#27
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Even getting 100 gold from them would be enough to upgrade 1 and 1/3 warrior to MI, so that would be worth it, In my book. Otherwise, we would have to wait 4 turns (pre-GA) to make that amount.

It's kind of fitting, if we do get some money from them, then using to take them down....

E_T

	16-09-2003 00:39									#28
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A large part of BigFree's points was based on the fact that GWT would probably try to sell them the tech even if we don't. I think we should at least try to get something out of the tech before GWT does, but failing that talking with them about it certainly doesn't hurt us.

	16-09-2003 01:55									#29
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Getting a GPT or luxary item for only 4 turns in a deal is too ridiculus to consider.

On the idea to starting to negioating for a GPT or luxary deal but not actually signing the deal, perhaps have a clause that it doesn't start until the turn after we are scheldued to attack them?
(Since nothing actually traded hands, it wouldn't be a rep hit.)

	16-09-2003 03:47									#30
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One point: GCA could at least survive with galleys by evacuating with a settler & spear to an island. That would make it much harder to wipe them out if we decide we want to.

Edit: And I don't see any reason to keep them around; no way they'll cooperate with us again. BUT, on the other hand, GWT will probably make contact well before we would be in a position to wipe them out pre-MM, so we may not have a choice here.