14-09-2003 06:37									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Secondly, abortion has a large number of heath risks to the mother, ranging from depression and an increased suicide rate, all the way to death and sterility. Lowering the abortion rate, will prevent these harms to the mothers.

Can you show evidence that this produces less harm than having the child can? This may not be so true anymore with modern medicine, but child birth used to be on of the leading causes of death for women. Unless you can produce the evidence on this subject, this line of argument is a BS one.

	14-09-2003 06:42									#32
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quote: Not because I like the act of abortion (I abhor it; my girlfriend and I do every effort to avoid an unwanted pregnancy because we don't want her to be forced to abort).

Spiffor:

Why do you abhor abortion? Surely if women ought to have a right, why should you try to avoid exercising the right?

quote: And because we'd have plenty of unwanted kids who'd have grown without love and caring, and who'd be doomed even before their birth.

The homeless are unwanted. May we kill them?

quote: If abortion was illegal, we'd have the pre 1960's situation all over again, with underground "doctors" butchering the fetus and the mother, with increased hazards and suffering.

Let me see if I have you right. People hurt themselves trying to kill other people, and the laws should protect the doctors?

Secondly, even if we criminalised abortion, we would not see a return to back alleys, according to Mary Calderone, the former Medical Director of Planned Parenthood.

"90% of all abortions are presently being done by physicians... Abortion , whether threrapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."

American Journal of Public Helath, July, 1960.

If illegal abortions were safe back then, why should they be dangerous now?

	14-09-2003 06:51									#33
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quote: Can you show evidence that this produces less harm than having the child can?

Gladly.

Here's a good site for the summary.

http://www.w-cpc.org/abortion/physical.html

BREAST CANCER

http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/ABC_Research.htm

"For women aborting a first pregnancy, the risk of breast cancer almost doubles after a first-trimester abortion and is multiplied with two or more abortions."

An extensive source listing can be found on the site.

CERVICAL CANCER

"Women with one abortion face a 2.3 relative risk of cervical cancer, compared to non-aborted women, and women with two or more abortions face a 4.92 relative risk. "

(Top site)

SUICIDE


It is generally accepted that induced abortion increases the risk that a woman will commit suicide. The latest (7 Dec 1996) study from Finland (4) reported that women who had an induced abortion had a 200% increased risk of committing suicide (RR = 3.08, 95% CI=1.57-6.03). In contrast, women with a full-term pregnancy had a reduced risk of committing suicide compared to the general female population. A recent study (5) based on women in New York reported that women during pregnancy had a 60% reduced risk of suicide and stated, "it may suggest that pregnancy could be a model for exploring protective factors against suicide in women in general." The researchers were at least 95% confident of their result

4 Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-94: register linkage study, British Medical J, Mika Gissler et al., 1996, 313:1431-1434

I can continue if you'd like.

	14-09-2003 06:55									#34
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europeans are so much more fatalistically practical. its a frightening trait.

	14-09-2003 07:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why do you abhor abortion? Surely if women ought to have a right, why should you try to avoid exercising the right?

I abhor abortion because it is a major trauma for most women who undertake it. Unless these women are completely carefree, they'll continue to wonder for a very long time (probably all their life) what could have happen to that kid they never had.

I happen to love my girlfriend, so I want to make sure this sorrow never happens to her.

However, should an accident happen and should she become pregnant, there would be no hesitation as to her abortion. It is crystal clear for both of us: we can imagine having children only once our studies are completely behind us; we will NOT allow an untimely pregnancy ruin our futures (and the futures of our children btw).

The possibility of abortion makes it possible for us to live a full relationship without the fear of pregnancy, and without the fear of wrecking our future We sure hope never to use it, but at least we know there is a last, yet ugly, safety net if things go wrong.

	14-09-2003 07:18									#36
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quote: it is a major trauma for most women who undertake it

quote: It is crystal clear for both of us: we can imagine having children only once our studies are completely behind us; we will NOT allow an untimely pregnancy ruin our futures

Well, wouldn't a major trauma have serious implications on your relationship, and your girlfriend's studies?

Secondly, what about the child? You clearly want children, why not have them now?

	14-09-2003 07:20									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The homeless are unwanted. May we kill them?

They're not doomed from before their birth. To me, this is the main difference: as a communist, I hate the idea of "fate", as if something had to happen to you because of a situation you have no control upon. And being an unwanted kid is being worstly hurt by fate in very most cases.

quote: Let me see if I have you right. People hurt themselves trying to kill other people, and the laws should protect the doctors?

I don't understand what you are saying.

quote: Secondly, even if we criminalised abortion, we would not see a return to back alleys, according to Mary Calderone, the former Medical Director of Planned Parenthood. (QUOTE)

I don't know where this journal got its information. Did they went to survey all the illegal abortions ? Did aborting women or doctors declare their abortion in order to enjoy being prosecuted ?
If it took its info from only the legal (medical) abortions and the few illegal abortionnists that got arrested, of course it'd give such a figure. I cannot believe this figure can be any close to the underground scene at that time, or they really had huge means to inquire on this.

	14-09-2003 07:21									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Gladly. Here's a good site for the summary. http://www.w-cpc.org/abortion/physical.html BREAST CANCER http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/ABC_Research.htm "For women aborting a first pregnancy, the risk of breast cancer almost doubles after a first-trimester abortion and is multiplied with two or more abortions." An extensive source listing can be found on the site. CERVICAL CANCER "Women with one abortion face a 2.3 relative risk of cervical cancer, compared to non-aborted women, and women with two or more abortions face a 4.92 relative risk. " (Top site) SUICIDE It is generally accepted that induced abortion increases the risk that a woman will commit suicide. The latest (7 Dec 1996) study from Finland (4) reported that women who had an induced abortion had a 200% increased risk of committing suicide (RR = 3.08, 95% CI=1.57-6.03). In contrast, women with a full-term pregnancy had a reduced risk of committing suicide compared to the general female population. A recent study (5) based on women in New York reported that women during pregnancy had a 60% reduced risk of suicide and stated, "it may suggest that pregnancy could be a model for exploring protective factors against suicide in women in general." The researchers were at least 95% confident of their result 4 Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-94: register linkage study, British Medical J, Mika Gissler et al., 1996, 313:1431-1434 I can continue if you'd like.

Actually the site evidence doesn't look that convincing!!! From the site:

quote: Legal abortion is reported as the fifth leading cause of maternal death in the United States, though in fact it is recognized that most abortion related deaths are not officially reported as such.2

Unless I'm misreading this, deaths from attempting to give birth are the top four types of maternal deaths in the US, and I'm assuming that by maternal deaths they are refering to deaths related to either abortions or giving birth. This suggests in of itself that there are much higher risks giving birth than having an abortion, particularly given that since the next few top maternal risks of death are probably directly related to the act of giving birth. The fact they admit they don't have actual statistics conclusively proving their claim makes me even more skeptical of this stat.

On the suicide issue, I find the studies doesn't seem that convincing given the evidence they have presented. Generally you would expect women who have abortions to be more messed up and have emotional issue simply because they are in a situation where they feel they need to opt for an abortion. Furthermore, I'm virtually certain that abortions are more commonly opted for when teenagers get pregnant, and teenage women have a far statisticly higher rate of suicide than adults. Without better conducted studies, its not clear at all that the abortions have anything to do with commiting suicide or if this is a case of happening to target demographics that are more likely to commit suicide with abortion as the selection criteria. It still looks to me like its healthier for the women to have an abortion on a statistical basis.

	14-09-2003 07:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well, wouldn't a major trauma have serious implications on your relationship, and your girlfriend's studies?

A trauma does not equate 9 months of exhaustion in high-pace studies, which are impossible to stop-n-resume. Would she become pregnant, she could physically not follow the tempo, and she could never bear the repeating 4-hours exams at the end.
Edit: not only at the end of the year. In her time of the studies, she has a 4 hours-exam every two weeks on saturday morning. And the craze with all exams lumped together will happen twice, once in winter once in summer.

quote: Secondly, what about the child? You clearly want children, why not have them now?

The answer is just above.

I don't know for you Canadians, but in France, your professional position (and the €€€ that go along) heavily depend on your studies. My girlfriend and I have engaged in demanding studies with a high reward at the end. If everything goes find, we should have no trouble finding secure and well-paid jobs.
However, if anything goes wrong, the whole 5 years wyclus will go to waste, and we'd have no second chance to take that course again. basically, it would downgrade us dramatically. Should my gf become pregnant, she can kiss her studies bye-bye.

And the good career + income in the future.

And the stable and comfortable situation we want to afford to our kids.

Besides, I want to work in the political field, which requires many travels and many leaves from home, for a not-so-great pay. As such, she'd need to be financially quite autonomous, and have significant time. If I intend to realize the dream of my lifetime (this carreer path), I can't afford to have her work 10+ hours as the supermarkt's cashier.

	14-09-2003 07:34									#40
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quote: The fact they admit they don't have actual statistics conclusively proving their claim makes me even more skeptical of this stat.

http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V8...tiondeaths.html

"For this same time period (1981-1984), New York's top health official had identified 30 deaths in New York City alone, while the CDC's official report shows only 42 abortion-related deaths during this period for the entire nation."

quote: Generally you would expect women who have abortions to be more messed up and have emotional issue simply because they are in a situation where they feel they need to opt for an abortion.

So much for a woman's right to choose. I thought most women were secure healthy individuals. You have no evidence to back up your assertion that woman who carry to term are less fragile than woman who have an abortion. There are many woman who solder through a crisis pregnancy, just as there are many women who abort at their convenience.

quote: I'm virtually certain that abortions are more commonly opted for when teenagers get pregnant, and teenage women have a far statisticly higher rate of suicide than adults.

Well, let's see the majority of abortions:

quote: Approximately 30% were 19 years of age or younger; 35% were 20-24 years of age; and 35% were 25 years of age or older.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001243.htm

You are wrong. Most women who abort are older than 19.

	14-09-2003 07:46									#41
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quote: A trauma does not equate 9 months of exhaustion in high-pace studies, which are impossible to stop-n-resume. Would she become pregnant, she could physically not follow the tempo, and she could never bear the repeating 4-hours exams at the end.

Seems a problem with the system, that you could not get an exemptation to have a child.

	14-09-2003 07:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Seems a problem with the system, that you could not get an exemptation to have a child.

It is. But either we cope with the system, or we're fvcked

Two sum it up simply: between two evils we'd chose the least terrible. But since we know very well that abortion is a terribly saddening event, we take all steps necessary to avoid it. Thank mankind for contraception

	14-09-2003 07:54									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You have no evidence to back up your assertion that woman who carry to term are less fragile than woman who have an abortion. There are many woman who solder through a crisis pregnancy, just as there are many women who abort at their convenience.

How about trying logic? People who are victims of rape or are abandoned by the individual they are in a relationship with when they reveal they are pregnant, are both more likely to seek an abortion and commit suicide, but in these cases there seem to be clear dirrect causes for the suicide other than having an abortion. I'm also confident that women are less likely to choose an abortion in situations where they are in a stable relationship and believe they have a partner who will stick by them and support their child. I'm virtually certain that statistics will show women less likely to commit suicide in these sort of situations, regardless of whether they are pregnant or not. Without studies that examine these issues and come up methods or removing them as potential issues that could effect the statistics, you can't show whether people who commit suicide are more likely to be in situations where they feel they need to have an abortion, or if having an abortion directly makes these individuals more likely to commit suicide.

	14-09-2003 07:58									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Secondly, even if we criminalised abortion, we would not see a return to back alleys, according to Mary Calderone, the former Medical Director of Planned Parenthood. "90% of all abortions are presently being done by physicians... Abortion , whether threrapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians." American Journal of Public Helath, July, 1960. If illegal abortions were safe back then, why should they be dangerous now?

First of all, I need to get a direct reference of Ms Calderone actually saying that because what is missing (as indicated by the ellipsis) can be important. Secondly, was she talking about the situation in the US? There is no reference inside the quotation to indicate one way or another.

	14-09-2003 08:13									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 4 Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-94: register linkage study, British Medical J, Mika Gissler et al., 1996, 313:1431-1434

The study is interesting but inconclusive. It merely is a correlation between suicides in women and ended pregnanies (giving birth, abortions, and miscarriages). However, it did not exclude any external influnces or possible skewing of groups, such as financial status, marital status, and a whole host of other factors.

	14-09-2003 08:19									#46
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quote: However, it did not exclude any external influnces or possible skewing of groups, such as financial status, marital status, and a whole host of other factors.

True. More work needs to be done. However, the only evidence we do have favours the position that abortion increases the rate of suicide for women.

quote: First of all, I need to get a direct reference of Ms Calderone actually saying that because what is missing (as indicated by the ellipsis) can be important. Secondly, was she talking about the situation in the US? There is no reference inside the quotation to indicate one way or another.

I'll see what I can do. The quote comes from my files, and may not be available online in direct reference. Yes, the quote refers to the US.

	14-09-2003 08:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi True. More work needs to be done. However, the only evidence we do have favours the position that abortion increases the rate of suicide for women.

Again, by itself its not definative evidence of this at all. You haven't shown if people morely likely to commit suicide tend to choose to have abortions due to their circumstances, or if having an abortion actually affects the likelyhood of these women commiting suicide. You need to seperate cause and effect for the study to have any weight.

	14-09-2003 08:28									#48
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Mordoch:

quote: People who are victims of rape

Statistically insignificant proportion of the women who abort do so because of rape. Estimate 1% of the total.

http://www.choicesmc.org/pages/top10list.html

quote: or are abandoned by the individual they are in a relationship with when they reveal they are pregnant,

Many woman also choose to seek help and keep their baby in a similar situation.

	14-09-2003 08:35									#49
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Spiffor:

I missed your earlier post.

quote: They're not doomed from before their birth. To me, this is the main difference: as a communist, I hate the idea of "fate", as if something had to happen to you because of a situation you have no control upon. And being an unwanted kid is being worstly hurt by fate in very most cases.

Why should children die simply because their mother did not want them? Just because you are not wanted does not make you any less of a person.

As for my other point, bank robbers sometimes get killed trying to rob a bank. Should we make bank robbery legal to make sure that they do not get hurt?

That is exactly what is happening here. Mothers die trying to kill their babies. Should we make it legal for them to do so?

quote: I cannot believe this figure can be any close to the underground scene at that time, or they really had huge means to inquire on this.

As the medical director of Planned Parenthood, I would presume that she would be well informed in the safety of abortion at that time.

	14-09-2003 09:30									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Many woman also choose to seek help and keep their baby in a similar situation.

That's certainly true, but if statisticly they are more likely to seek abortion in these situations and they are more likely to commit suicide in general, they will distort the overall statistics.

	14-09-2003 09:55									#51
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Mordoch:

quote: if statisticly they are more likely to seek abortion in these situations and they are more likely to commit suicide in general, they will distort the overall statistics.

That's two premisses, both unverified.

1. Are women in this situation more likely to have an abortion?

2. Are these same women more likely to commit suicide?

Do you have the statistical evidence to back either of these statements?

	14-09-2003 09:59									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That's two premisses, both unverified. 1. Are women in this situation more likely to have an abortion? 2. Are these same women more likely to commit suicide? Do you have the statistical evidence to back either of these statements?

As I said earlier, for the statistics you cited to be convincing, you need to show with certainty that these premisses are incorrect. I'm not saying I KNOW the statistics are wrong with certainty I'm questioning them and giving reasons why.

	14-09-2003 10:04									#53
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quote: you need to show with certainty that these premisses are incorrect.

Nope. Look at all the work I did in the thread.

Time for you to show your hand.

	14-09-2003 11:03									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Nope. Look at all the work I did in the thread. Time for you to show your hand.

Ok for starters, here's something on suicide rates.

quote: The risk is higher in those who are divorced, widows and widowers. The lowest risk is in those who are married.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/000600.html

In other words, those married, generally a much more stable relationship than when just dating, commit suicide less.

quote: The proportion of unintended pregnancies also varied by other selected characteristics, including marital status, race and ethnicity, and income. Low-income, unmarried, black or Hispanic women aged 18-24 years experienced the highest rate of unintended pregnancies. An estimated 78% of never-married women and 63% of formerly married women had an unintended pregnancy compared to only 31% of married women... In general, unmarried women were also more likely to end an unintended pregnancy by elective abortion. About 60% to 65% of single women versus 37% of married women ended their unintended pregnancies by induced abortion.

http://www.contraceptiononline.org/...le01.cfm?art=48

The percentage difference between single and married women is quite substancial here. In the situation I set up, the men will often marry the woman before the baby is born if he intends to stay with her, so I'd say this offers a fair amount of evidence on the issue.

	14-09-2003 11:14									#55
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Good.

However, your first source does not distinguish between married men and married women, and does not put a figure on the differences between those married and those single for the likelihood of suicide.

The big question you need to find is whether married women commit suicide less than single women who have never married.

	14-09-2003 11:31									#56
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Here's one piece of evidence.

quote: In 1992, the rate for divorced or widowed men in this age group was 2.7 times that for married men, 1.4 times that for never-married men, and over 17 times that for married women. The rate for divorced or widowed women was 1.8 times that for married women and 1.4 times that for never-married women.

http://www.main.org/sos/stats.html

The rates for never married men and women appear to be essentially identical.

	14-09-2003 11:32									#57
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yes, I suport first trimester abortion (first 3 months).

I'm against abortion after 3 months unless it is to save the life of the mother under some unusual circumstance.

	14-09-2003 11:55									#58
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About all this trimester stuff, at what point does one become aware that they are pregnant? Is there ever a reason for people to have to wait until the later term to abort?

	14-09-2003 14:31									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That is exactly what is happening here. Mothers die trying to kill their babies. Should we make it legal for them to do so?

Yes. As I stated in every previous debate, and as I'll state in every future debate, I do not consider abortion as murder, and I refuse to discuss abortion in the light of moral turns.

Read my first replay to Solver in this thread (page 1), and see how predictable you are

	14-09-2003 15:04									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GePap That is exactly the point: in the US everything is an issue of rights, rights this, rights that...no one cares to accept the soverignty of the government and its ability to make laws: everything has to be about the validation of some fundamental right... There is no right to life, nor right to abortion. What there needs to be is sensible family planning legislation.

I suggest you take a few history courses on the founding of the United States.

I say this having taken such a course and walking out of it understanding the American psyche.

What happened nearly 300 years ago between the American colonists, the British, taxation without representation and, the colonists' "rights", have a lot to do with why Americans are hypersensitive in this area today.

Understanding goes a long way in solving your problem with the US preoccupation with rights.