14-09-2003 03:23									#1
	Are you still in favor of killing this child? Increase the size of your Attachments

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3105580.stm

	14-09-2003 03:29									#2
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Abortion is murder.

	14-09-2003 03:29									#3
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I am undecided. Honestly. I'm still thinking that it should be before the baby has any conciousness/humanoid features.

	14-09-2003 03:32									#4
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People in the uS need to get a grip on the issue: it's interesting how most European countries have little problem with the issue.

And it should remain legal.

	14-09-2003 03:33									#5
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Abortion saves lives.

	14-09-2003 03:35									#6
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Seriously though, the point is to have enough education about constraception methods so as NOT to have to resort to abortion in the first place.

	14-09-2003 03:37									#7
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Do another poll, and replace 'child' with 'fetus'. It's never okay to kill a child.

	14-09-2003 03:40									#8
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quote: People in the uS need to get a grip on the issue: it's interesting how most European countries have little problem with the issue.

Then again, most European countries (IIRC) have more restrictions on abortion than US.

Honestly, it's such an either/or issue in US. Either you have abortions for none or abortions for everyone, instead of abortions for some and miniature plastic flags for others. I mean, I think it's ridiculous to claim a right to life to two cells not doing much else than clinging to each other, and it's downright ghoulish to demand a right to abortion for non-life-threatening reasons right up to the moment of birth. But to some partisans it seems that it's all or nothing.

	14-09-2003 03:44									#9
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That is exactly the point: in the US everything is an issue of rights, rights this, rights that...no one cares to accept the soverignty of the government and its ability to make laws: everything has to be about the validation of some fundamental right...

There is no right to life, nor right to abortion. What there needs to be is sensible family planning legislation.

	14-09-2003 03:55									#10
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And following that, I've always been against contraceptive abortion, until I found ACS and discovered thinning the herd might be a good idea.

	14-09-2003 03:58									#11
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Stefu

	14-09-2003 03:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by GePap There is no right to life, nor right to abortion. What there needs to be is sensible family planning legislation.

I think both of those are rights, but neither always trumps the other.

	14-09-2003 04:20									#13
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A question to people who support making abortion illegal - do you think it would help? I think that most mothers then (remember, many abortions come from teen sex) would just try to get rid of their pregnancy "manually", which could damage them seriously.

	14-09-2003 04:24									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Solver do you think it would help? I think that most mothers then (remember, many abortions come from teen sex) would just try to get rid of their pregnancy "manually", which could damage them seriously.

I don't think this is their problem. In every abortion "debate" I could witness, anti-abortionists took the position of principle that abortion is murder, and murder should be illegal in all circumstances. Real-life consequences are never took into consideration, except when it comes to those unwanted kids who grew in a loving environment despite the unwantedness.

	14-09-2003 04:29									#15
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand And following that, I've always been against contraceptive abortion, until I found ACS and discovered thinning the herd might be a good idea.

	14-09-2003 04:32									#16
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand And following that, I've always been against contraceptive abortion, until I found ACS and discovered thinning the herd might be a good idea.

The best pro-abortion argument in a long time.

	14-09-2003 04:46									#17
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quote: In every abortion "debate" I could witness, anti-abortionists took the position of principle that abortion is murder, and murder should be illegal in all circumstances. Real-life consequences are never took into consideration

That's why I can't really have a solid position on the issue. I believe that abortion is murder (and murder should be illegal), but I believe that making it illegal actually will still kill just as many babies (or almost as much), but it will also injure or kill the mothers... which isn't good at any rate.

	14-09-2003 04:52									#18
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Solver:
I am actually strongly pro-abortion-rights. Not because I like the act of abortion (I abhor it; my girlfriend and I do every effort to avoid an unwanted pregnancy because we don't want her to be forced to abort). But simply because a legal, medicalized abortion is the most practical solution to deal with the problem of unwanted pregnancies. If abortion was illegal, we'd have the pre 1960's situation all over again, with underground "doctors" butchering the fetus and the mother, with increased hazards and suffering. And because we'd have plenty of unwanted kids who'd have grown without love and caring, and who'd be doomed even before their birth.

	14-09-2003 04:58									#19
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For the record I don't believe abortion is murder. Actually the just sound of it makes want to giggle. I totally agree with the Finn. And I'm glad we don't have scenes like the ones I have seen in SOME states of the US where SOME people go out of abortion clinics and shout "murderers" to teenage girls.
I swear if I was american I'd go there and smash their heads and propably be locked up. Actually, no but you get the idea I feel a huge repulsion for those people.
For the record those people should be arrested, convicted and locked up for psychological violence violation.


However legislature about abortion can create some nasty results. I was recently reading that in Greece (where abortion is legal to up to 3 months except extraordinary circumstances IIRC) 48% of the percentage of underbirth (how do we say it in english? when a population is decreasing) is due to abortions.

Many women think it's no big deal to just have an abortion. They treat it like it is just another method of avoiding unwanted pregnecy. And the National Health Care system pays for that, as with nearly everything, so it is even easier.

But abortion can have nasty effects to their organisms. More so if it's done more than once.

That's why I said about contraceptives and information.

	14-09-2003 04:59									#20
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Kill the bastards, I want a million-man march of fetuses!
Exterminate the brutes!

When does it become human? If you're non-religious its difficult to say. 16 days? Before which it's a mass of undifferentiated cells? The first trimester? When the baby/fetus is incapable of thought? Hmmm

	14-09-2003 05:03									#21
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Agreed Spiffor... but as I see it, we provide the right (for reasons you mentioned) for people to do an immoral thing (for reasons you can read in a ton of places ).

	14-09-2003 05:08									#22
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By the help of ultra-sound imaging, I have seen a legal-for-abortion fetus do karate and picking her nose inside the womb. She's now 2 years old and still in that extremely physical mode.

Abortions =

	14-09-2003 05:16									#23
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May she live many years and be happy

Just out of curiocity, in how many months of pregnancy?

	14-09-2003 05:20									#24
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Can't remember exactly, perhaps 3-4.

	14-09-2003 05:26									#25
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Yep when the baby reaches 3 months it is forbidden (unless exceptional circumstances dictate otherwise ) . I think if a woman decides to go ahead with it, she is usually adviced to do it as early as possible. But I gather it has to do with reducing the danger to her.

	14-09-2003 05:31									#26
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I think around 20 weeks is still legal in Sweden. Thats about halftime at 4.5 months. My sister-in-law used to be a early-birth nurse. While most of the kids in her institution died, some of them actually survived birth in 22-23nd week to become fully healthy adults.

	14-09-2003 05:31									#27
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Yep when the baby reaches 3 months it is forbidden (unless exceptional circumstances dictate otherwise )

Same here. I personally would have little problem with 4 months or 2 months, but I fear 2 months is two short in some circumstances where the paperwork is too heavy, or when the decision needed a few weeks to be weighted.

	14-09-2003 06:17									#28
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By all means Kill the damn thing!

	14-09-2003 06:27									#29
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Its not a child, a baby does not receive a soul until its first breath and is merely a level of animal life before that.

	14-09-2003 06:32									#30
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As for the poll, can't put it better than Shi.

quote: but I believe that making it illegal actually will still kill just as many babies (or almost as much), but it will also injure or kill the mothers... which isn't good at any rate.

Solver:

Your argument assumes that making abortion illegal will have little or no effect on the abortion rate.

http://www.pregnantpause.org/numbers/poland.htm

I submit a close country, and former Soviet Satellite, Poland as counter-evidence.

After criminalising abortion, Poland has seen a huge drop in the abortion rate. Illegal abortion will greatly lower the number of children dying from abortion, as well as lowering the harm to the mothers.

Secondly, abortion has a large number of heath risks to the mother, ranging from depression and an increased suicide rate, all the way to death and sterility. Lowering the abortion rate, will prevent these harms to the mothers.