13-01-2001 00:36									#2
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I've enjoyed the early turns of the succession games I've played, but the later turns seem to consist of mopping up the AIs. Not much challenge in slaughtering phalanxes with dragoons and ironclads. Thus, I propose a game with the following parameters:

- AIs given 2-4 well-sited cities in 4000 BC
- Human/AI interaction disabled (no techs or gold from the AIs)
- AI/AI interaction disabled (no war between AIs, no tech trading)
- no goody huts
- no wonders
- deity/raging
- large (or giga?) map

This game would require MGE, since the non-interaction would have to be implemented with an events.txt file. Thoughts?

	13-01-2001 01:21									#3
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Dave - you must be itching to build more AI cities on hills again.

Yes I would be interested! Giga if enough agree!

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SG(2)

	13-01-2001 02:38									#4
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I've been wanting to get into a succession game. Giga works for me too.

Sounds like an interesting idea Dave!

John-SJ

	16-01-2001 23:25									#5
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I'm in with one comment... be careful what you wish for.

* edit *

I just looked closer at your proposed parameters. Yikes! I vote for gigamap with us in as far away a corner as possible. Then again, with no wonders, a fightin' we will go. Closer is better... just not too close.
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Frodo lives!
[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited January 16, 2001).]

	17-01-2001 03:06									#6
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I'm into it so long as it 2.42

	17-01-2001 03:46									#7
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It looks like a good idea.
Your parameters are tough and Kcbob's suggestion of adding a little geography to the puzzle is great.
Two suggestions :
1) We start on the corner of a random gigamap. We could ask a kind civer who does not play the sucession game to redraw it a little bit and choose the locations, so we are not spoiled the pleasure of discovery.
2) We use the new gigaworld map and start in Hawai or, let's say Kerguelen. By the time we have Navigation or at least Seafaring, the AI civs (random locations ?) could have a "little" edge. And it would be a mix of OCC and then ICS.
My propositions are maybe too complicated, but anyway, count me in for this game ! (although I'm not the best player there is)

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Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

	17-01-2001 08:38									#8
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... we could start further away from the AI ... on AC perhaps - and play the game backwards?
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SG(2)

	17-01-2001 17:41									#9
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Yeah the first civ to have a total technological break down wins!

Actually, the idea of starting on Easter Island or something as a handicap is a good one.

	17-01-2001 18:12									#11
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All - I plan to go with a random map and reveal as little as absolutely necessary to establish some cities for the AIs and build and destroy most of the wonders (the available wonders will be Apollo for the spaceship option, and UN to avoid the contact-from-start bug). This way I can still play in the game without knowing too much.

The island start idea would make for an interesting game also, but I'm looking for a more normal start.

	17-01-2001 19:55									#12
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DaveV - as I am not playing this one - though I would like to be included in version 2 - I could volunteer to set up the AI for you ...

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	17-01-2001 20:43									#13
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SG1 - that would be great! I've sent you an Email with some thoughts, but please feel free to ignore me and use your creativity. Since I'm still plodding through the Gigamap endgame, someone else could be first in line. So far, we appear to be:

SG2
John-SJ
kcbob
Julius?
DaveV

Sorry, johnmcd, but this will require MGE.

	19-01-2001 04:12									#14
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DaveV - sorry I have not received your e-mail so had to go ahead with my own ideas ...

The map: is a squarish flat gigamap - completely random although I added a few land bridges and removed a few inland lakes so as to abide by the <64 of each rule.

Your civ: is the 'Tories' conventional two Settler start near a juicy four special if you choose to use it.

The bad guys: the rest of the central column, they don't like you much and have each been given some totally unfair advantage. You will, I hope, find the Mongols and French particularly challenging militaristically. Meanwhile, the Aztecs and Chinese will be beavering away for AC. By the time you get to the Zulus and the Russians they too should prove challenging.

I regret the scenario is untested and so might prove to be a complete kitten, but I don't think so.

Scenario now sent to SG(2)

Good civin',

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	19-01-2001 07:14									#15
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Dave - I have now received the game.
Before I start do you want to suggest the number of turns we should play?
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SG(2)

	19-01-2001 08:14									#16
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SG2 - I suggest we stick with the 20/15/10 turn interval. Ten turns is proving to be a long time on the other giga map game; maybe we could shorten it to 5 turns at some point. Use your judgement.

	19-01-2001 18:55									#20
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I think it's pretty obvious that turn-around time, i.e., dedication to getting your turn played and the game turned over to the next in line, is the biggest slowdown. But then, sometimes, it can't be helped. It's just when it stretches into weeks per turn that's a drag.

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Frodo lives!

	19-01-2001 20:39									#21
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This discussion about turns is now rather academic!!

Julius you will be pleased to know we beat the OCC record for playing time ......


4000BC - We have started with 891 gold! Chariot from hut
3950BC - Warrior Code from hut! ; Finchley founded on the four special site.
3900BC - 1st research goal is Alphabet; Grantham founded
3750BC - Alphabet from hut
3700BC - Researching CB
3650BC - 50g hut : Barracks built at Finchley.
3600BC - Mongols arrive! (receptive) Look a SPY!! Peace with the Very Nice Mongols who refused the offer of an alliance. Legion from hut. Mongols are most powerful civ - we are weakest, with an atrocious reputation. Mongols are in Fundy.
3550BC - Another three spies spotted.
3500BC - Mongols bribe Grantham - 292g lost! They are now engraged war!
3450BC - Mongols sabotage barracks
3400BC - Another spy entered Finchley - production sabotaged!
3350BC - Ceremonial Burial discovered! Caught a glimpse of a submarine! Have put in Writing (for diplo) as next research!
3300BC - Mongol horsemen destroy Finchley. Long video/GAME OVER!!!!!!!!

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SG(2)

	19-01-2001 23:30									#23
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Yikes! It musta been the starting gold. Them Mongrols can smell it a mile away!

Take two?

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Frodo lives!

	20-01-2001 00:18									#24
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Maybe we can try the "thing" but at Warlord.

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Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

	20-01-2001 16:49									#25
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The Return … Hollywood wanted an epic, not five minutes of slaughter.

Margaret Thatcher, Tory Leader, had a nightmare one cold evening in 4000BC. She dreamt about the log posted above. What impossible odds! But great leaders overcome such minor obstacles. With the words of the soothsayer kcbob ringing in her ears about "Take two?" she set about her business.

Her dream had pointed to the importance of acquiring Writing quickly. The opportunity of having diplomats to bribe a few advanced units seemed crucial. There was some gold in the Treasury, but was there enough time to avoid the annihilation promised in her sleep?

The first hut yielded a chariot, just like the dream. Then she founded her capital at Finchley. [Loc (38, 104) 27] The next hut had the scrolls of Alphabet - one step nearer the goal. The third hut came into view in the exact location given in the nightmare. The night before entering it she prayed to the Gods of Apolyton. As a child her father had recounted the sagas and myths of mighty Apolyton warriors who found the scrolls of Mobile Warfare in such remote villages. Would she be so lucky? A red horseman would spell an end faster than the log.

The following morning a settler returned with news of new wisdom! "Tell me you have the scrolls of Writing!" she asked desperately. The settler's eyes turned towards the ground as he mumbled "Map Making"

"I think we have just lost a great empire we never had" she said turning away in the vague direction of Finchley. Attempting to console his leader he replied "We could always build a boat and get out of here!"

Watching Finchley fade into the horizon Margaret paced the bridge of Trireme One. On board was the non settler and non chariot. The brave warriors left behind would have to hold the city for as long as possible. Though the passengers were non, the boat was supported. When the city fell all would be lost if on board. The course set was north, as the enemy appeared to be coming from the other direction. In her dream a submarine had also appeared but with any luck that would only arrive near the city after they had fled. The objective was to find some islands away from that continent. Alas, Triremes must hug the coast, and that seemed mostly swamp. One beach hut surrendered its secret of Horseback Riding. For weeks they sailed in search of an end to the Mongol Continent. News had reached them that the spies now surrounded Finchley. The Mongol "heavies" would not be far behind. It was time to land and found a new city. A small patch of grassland offered some hope. There was a whale offshore with peat nearby. It was still the same continent but on the north-western cape. Finchley Road was built and the ship re-homed. Immediately afterwards Finchley was destroyed.

The chariot and the boat went scouting, and by good luck were joined by a nomad. Grantham was founded on swamp, but with peat and a whale at hand.

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It is now 3000BC and I will send the game to John and a copy to everyone. Not the best position to pass on - but this time there is a chance for another player!

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SG(2)

	20-01-2001 20:24									#26
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Nice job of surviving. But do you really think we stand a chance ?

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Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

	20-01-2001 20:47									#27
	Put an end to popups!

I wrought better thab I knew! SPIES! there shouldn't be any friggin' spies!!!! The Mongols were replete with vet Horsemen, but ....

I must revisit this scenario - it looks as if a wheel has fallen off!

Dare I show my face again - will SG2 ever speak to me again???



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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	20-01-2001 21:20									#28
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Oh those spies! why didn't you say?

There are only 4 of them (a non-renewable resource) - and I must confess to amazement that the 'stupid' AI had them up-front in the exploration stakes - it's your own fault for trying to talk to the AI - you were warned that they didn't like you much!
Players of your calibre should be able to cope (should I mention that there is a rather nice tenable choke point to the South of your current position?)

Seriously guys, would you like me to tone down the opposition? - could do it on Sunday ...

Good civin'

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	21-01-2001 04:34									#29
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The year is 3000 bc (hmmm, wonder how we know that?) and our still timy Torey civilization is just beginning to recover from it's paniced flight following our great leader's nightmare. We have two cities now both with a population of one, but we have hope that our distance from the "Mongol Hordes" will give us a chance to grow before we meet again.

Here then, is a short ( ) history of the Tory tribe:

2950 - Exploring on land and sea.
2900 - Barb Horsemen appear near Grantham.
2850 - Discovered Writing. Research Warrior Code or Pottery? It's a violent world, WC!
2800 - Barbs heading for Grantham. Must head them off with our valuable Chariot if Grantham is to survive. Grantham trains warrior.
2750 - Chariot destroyed by barbs.
2700 - Mongol spy subverted Finchley Road
2650 - Barbs attack Grantham, our only city, no harm to defending warrior (since it's now our only city)
2600 - More barbs spotted
2550 - Message from Mongols, we have decided to rid the world of your civ. (UH-OH!) On the same turn a Mongol spy subverted Grantham. Game over, again...

I think that these spies are just too good! Also, somewhere around 2650 it was announced that the "Golden Age of Philosophy" had begun with the Aztecs. WOW! Talk about advanced!

I think that we need to have a toned down opposition if this game is to work, or a much more isolated starting position. What about you all?

John-SJ

	21-01-2001 08:49									#30
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Take three???

Or, in the immortal words of Bill Murray in What About Bob?... baby steps, baby steps.

I don't know if I even want to have my turn. My psyche is beat up enough as it is. Oh, what the heck. But I agree that we might want to tone this down a bit. Whose idea was this, anyway?

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Frodo lives!